The verdict this weekend in the trial of a Methodist minister shows that even a church that holds homosexual practice "incompatible with Christian teachings" is being buffeted by a changing culture.

The Rev. Karen Dammann, of Ellensburg, Wash. was acquitted by a jury of 13 clergy in the United Methodist Church (UMC) of violating church law by living in a homosexual relationship.

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After a church member shared his anguish over the mixed messages of God's unconditional love and condemnation of homosexuals, "I began to understand what kind of violence was being done to people within the church," he says. "I grew up in the South and knew how the Bible could be misused to justify racism [and] make second-class citizens of women, how social customs could be declared God's will."

Essentially, the jury decided that the Book of Discipline was vague on whether homosexuality was inconsistent with Christian teaching. Church law, though, was clear on one point: "basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons."

The lesbian pastor was ultimately defrocked, by the church's highest court. The United Methodist Book of Discipline is not vague in declaring homosexual practice incompatible with Christian teachings. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...103100971.html

Moreover, the church's highest court recently sided with a local Methodist pastor who denied church membership to an unrepentant homosexual.
http://www.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIu...to_gay_man.htm

By ever increasing margins, conservatives have blocked attempts to weaken the church's teachings on homosexuality at the past four meetings of the church's General Conference. So-called "gay rights" is dead in the United Methodist Church.

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"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

That's not exactly accurate.

Note that Rev. Stroud was convicted for "practices declared by the United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings". And this, after she openly challenged the Church's written policy from the pulpit, even though everyone in her parish already knew she was gay, and that she was living with another woman.

But it didn't become an issue for "The Church", until the challenge was issued. You can read more about the context of this issue, here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Nov28.html

You know, the hypocrisy of this kind of thing is startling. Here was Jesus Christ himself, ministering to prostitutes, thieves, murderers, and all manner of "criminals" - and in his eyes, they were all worthy of salvation.

So who the heck is the "United Methodist Church" to tell anyone that Jesus Christ was wrong? Hmm?

Shame on them. Shame, shame, shame. Clearly, there are some people who just don't "get" the Christian teachings.

But I should also note, that the Methodist Church has traditionally been in the forefront of the battle against HIV, it was one of the first churches to get involved, and it's also been one of the biggest donors. The First Methodist Church in Hollywood still has a 20-foot-tall ribbon right above its front door, to symbolize its stance and participation in this effort.

No, it is most accurate. At each General Conference over the past four General Conferences, proposals were voted on which would weaken or exclude the language in the church's Book of Discipline declaring homosexual practice incompatible with Christian teaching, and by ever increasing margins, from when these proposals to exclude or weaken the language were first introduced through the cuurch's most recent General Conference in Pittsburgh, they have been defeated.

Ms. Stroud, in her vows of ordination to become a United Methodist pastor, pledged she would uphold and support the church's Book of Discipline, knowing full well she would not. Evidently, making sacred vows mean very little to Ms. Stroud.

PS

Only General Conference speaks of all United Methodism, and it has spoken clearly and plainly, and numerous occasions, on the subject. Your views are incompatible with United Methodism.

__________________
"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

Fair enough. I don't claim to be a Methodist. I do find it noteworthy though, that John Wesley himself was deeply concerned about slavery (and discrimination in general), calling it "an abomination in the eyes of God". Doesn't strike you as peculiar that a Church would wish to discriminate against a group of people in its teachings and practices?

Anyway, I'll defer to your knowledge on this one, obviously you're much closer to the issue than I am. From what I know of Christianity, it's pretty clear that it's supposed to be a religion for "everyone" - universal in scope - and this would be in keeping with the teachings of Jesus (as they're reported).

I don't know from "organized" religion. A lot of it is historical and stems from cultural traditions and period-specific social values. This controversy also continues in other denominations, doesn't it? Aren't the Presbyterians deeply divided on this issue too (at the moment)?

Yes, Presbyterians, and especially the Episcopal church, are divided on this issue. I read just today that an Episcopal church in Plano (outside Dallas) had disassociated itself from the Episcopal community because of the decisions it made very recently relative to this subject.

Of course the Church (capital "C") welcomes ALL. Of course, the Church seeks out and loves all, regardless of circumstances. In short, the Church LOVES sinners! Heck, that's what a church is made up of--a bunch of sinners! The issue is whether or not the Church should condone that a person continues living in sin. The vast majority of churches do not believe that is their mission. And since Scripture declares the practice of homosexuality and other types of sexual promiscuity sin, most believe the Church should not condone such behavior.

I am unaware of any church altar being closed to any one. We all come to Jesus because we know we have missed the mark and are burdened by sin. Forgiveness and new life is made possible when we enter into relationship with God by placing our faith in Jesus. God's forgiveness is offered and extended to all, regardless of life circumstances.

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"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

Culture is not changing. Culture is disappearing.

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The left way never can be the right one.

How can culture disappear? As long as humans exist, so does culture. Unless we somehow evolve into a species of individual predators and doesn't use symbolic communication.

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"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

That's what I asked myself very often. How could this happen?

But it happens. Regrettably.

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The left way never can be the right one.

It only happens if people go extinct. Otherwise it changes.
If you see a country in which people have "no culture", you're not looking hard enough.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside