I am torn between religion and science. Naturally I look at most issues scientifically if I can. I actually believe in combining the big bang theory with the creation theory. I simply believe that God started the big bang which spawned off several galaxies of which one in particular contains our Earth, and on that planet God created life, and man, etc...etc...etc.

But what I cannot seem to fit together is what happens after you die? By religious accounts we go to either heaven or hell. Some religions only believe in heaven. But within science I see that without a leg, you still are you. Without an arm, you are still you, etc. But what happens when your brain stops working? Are you still you? What happens when your whole body decays to dust? Are you still you? How can you be, without yourself? I suppose the soul cannot be measured by todays science, but where do you store your memories if you have no brain? How do you think? How can one be aware of himself/herself without a brain? I wonder sometimes if we will ever know, until we die, and even then how will we really know without a brain to comprehend? Sometimes at night I close my eyes and try to imagine what it would be like to be dead, and I picture darkness, so then, if I don't exist how can anything else, ex. heaven, God, etc.? Am I making any senses? Anyone have any theories?

...that there are an infinite number of possibilities, though we may understand them only partially or poorly.

I personally tend toward ending up in some afterlife and/or reincarnation, not in that order as any kind of rule, and both. Make sense?

As an example, I believe that when I die I will go to be with my ancestors. I may or may not be reincarnated at some point, depending on how things go. I do not see this contradicting, in any way, another person's journey to their own heaven or hell, happy hunting grounds, Valhalla, whatever. We all have different paths in this.

A prerequisite of this belief is my knowledge that we are souls, not bodies that have souls. You may have an old house that you're comfortable with, but when it's run down and can't be renovated any more, or it burns down, it's time to move on. You're still you; how could it be otherwise?

Death is nothing to fear.

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What have you done for your people today?

So you believe that each person has their own destiny after death, be it heaven/hell/reincarnation? This sounds logical. I like the idea that my afterlife is taylored specifically for me.

Yes, makes sense. With population on the rise worldwide, I'd have to think that reincarnation is the preferred method at this point in time.

Again, the different paths point intrigues me. I certainly don't see how heaven can be the same for everyone.

This is where I think my problem lies. I agree when your house burns down or whatever, you get a new house. When you die then, without reincarnation, I see no way that a soul can be aware of itself without the presence of a mind, a brain. I wonder what the point of existing as a soul is if you cannot be aware of yourself.

Am I not really Mike Potter then? Is life merely an illusion? Lets say for instance reincarnation does exist...I could have been several very different people by now. This leads me to wonder, am I not really me, who was I before I was Mike? Who will I be after I am Mike? This frightens me, because I enjoy being Mike. And I'd hate to not be able to remember being Mike. I've worked my whole life to better Mike, only to have it torn away to start over? I don't like the sounds of that. Or if there is no reincarnation, but simply heaven, then does my soul look like me? Am I aware that I am still Mike, but without a body? And if so, how is this possible? I don't mean to bombard you with questions Eric, but this really bothers me. I'm about to have another birthday, and I usually freak out over this each year. I thought that was only supposed to happen to older folks, not someone turning 27!!!

But I do fear it, over almost everything. I picture my last breath, my last words, before it all fades away into nothing, and it scares me. I suppose I'm not the only one...but that doesn't make me feel any better.

Yep. Might be one of those things, might be more than one of things, might be all of those things in some order. Our time in this world is only a small part of the whole.

What need is there of a physical structure, as we perceive it? It's obvious, I think, that (assuming there is some form of afterlife) there are two choices: such physical structures are not needed, and we function somewhat differently once unencumbered by our fleshy forms, or we exist in a physical (or physically-analogous) form of a different sort, in a different existance.

The brain is simply the physical reflection of the mind, which is naught but the cognitive abilities of our true self. There is a mantra I have heard: "I am not my body, I am that which controls it. I am not my emotions, I am that which experiences them. I am not my mind, I am that which orders it."

Who is Mike Potter? Is he a discrete entity, an amalgamation of others' expectations and your chosen responses, the reflection of other peoples' eyes, something else altogether?

This is entirely dependent on who or what you are. Are you a single entity passing through time, or perhaps (in a more Buddhist fashion), simply the aggregate of many other existences' "pieces", come together to make a new person, for now?

I lean towards the former, but don't discount the latter.

It might be necessary. Or it might not. I don't know.

I would assume so. A deliberate afterlife (such as that sponsored by a deity of some sort) that erases one's identity doesn't strike me as attractive.

How is it possible that we take such a precious thing as sentience for granted? How is it possible that sheer, random chance created the amazingly complex interaction of atoms that make up everything around us, and further, that intelligence arose to a point to comprehend such things? How is it that love or hate, completely intangible things, can save or destroy millions? It just is.

I just turned twenty-seven a couple of weeks ago. It's no big thing.

More to the point, though, does it not strike you as a bit odd that you'd have the capability of even asking these sorts of questions if there was nothing at all to them? I find the odds staggeringly against, to the point of utter impossibility, the idea that there's no more to our existence than blunt and bloody irrelevancy. We are miracles. Sentience is a miracle.

I just don't see the need for fear. Either we continue or we don't. If we do, cool. Take it as it comes, same as anything else. If we don't, we won't know it, now will we?

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What have you done for your people today?

Does this then go along with the fact that time is relative? In the afterlife, is time merely a convenience, as opposed to the strict guidline we have in life?

I suppose there is no need for physical structure, but if there is no need for the physical, then why must it exist? Why can't we always exist as souls. This however is like asking the meaning of life now isn't it. Sorry. I wonder how this physical form of a different sort co-exists with the physical form we currently know. Is this the difference between matter and anti-matter?

Ok, I see what you are saying. The mind in itself is part of the soul, correct? The brain is the tool of which the mind uses to control the body? Without the brain, the mind continues on within the soul? Is this possible? I suppose it has to be, if one is to accept the idea of an afterlife.

I don't know. I question this, in regards to reincarnation. Mike Potter is who I am from 1977 to death, but before and after those years, I don't know what to say about who I am. Pre-1977 could I say "I am", and conversely post-death will I be able to say "I am"?

I think I've made it apparent that I hope I am a single entity passing through time, as I'd hate to think of myself as anything other than myself. Though the Buddhist philosophy intrigues me and sounds logical in the sense that we are here to piece together our lives to create a supreme existence for ourselves.

I'll have to side with you on this as well.

Very profound statement...makes one think that there really is a divine plan.

Its not the age that bothers me. Its the fact that I am that much closer to death. One day, I will have had my last birthday, people will celebrate it, hell I'll even celebrate it as I always do. Only it will be my last. Seem ironical to me that I would be happy with my final birthday.

We are miracles...I can give you that. I don't deny that. The gift of life has been given to us, and yet, someday, it will be taken away. This makes me angry. Though, the only thing that settles my anger is the hope that an afterlife is out there for us to continue our existence through.

You have a good point here. If there is nothing after death, and I cease to exist, how will I know, and if I do exist after death, then great. Thanks. That does make me feel better about having yet another birthday which brings me closer to that point in time.

Possibly. For some, perhaps, time is irrelevant. For others, it could be very important. I'm certain it's not the linear structure as we currently envision it, however. I believe the past is fixed, the present is mutable, and the future is the combination of the two in (sublime or horrific) concert.

I believe it must exist to give reflection to that higher existence that lies beyond and around it. It gives us a solid foundation whence we look out into the universe. Training wheels? No one knows for certain.

We do. We simply inhabit physical bodies at this point. I cannot stress that enough, but you're free to disregard it.

All manner of things co-exist with this physical form. We used to believe that a substance called ether permeated the universe, filling everything between (and inside) more-perceivable matter. We then discarded this theory, only to revive it as "dark matter" and talk of inversed charges. We've discovered that the act of our sentient observation changes the nature of energy. We observe both general relativity and quantum mechanics, and then find a way they might work together. The universe (if such is even a proper term for the sum of existence, given what we postulate about other dimensions and the like) is much bigger than 99% of the population appreciates. In light of all this knowledge, would it be such a leap to discover that our sentience continues elsewhere once a physical body ceases to function?

They're all connected. A better analogy might be an onion. Our bodies are the outermost layer, our minds and hearts the next, with our true selves, souls, the center. We have a tendency to identify with the body, as it's our primary interface with physical existance. Some people identify rather with the mind, or the heart, to the exclusion of other parts. But as the layers are stripped away, say perhaps by the death of the outer layer, we are left with more of our true selves. This is why, historically, asceticism, meditation, ecstasy, etc., have been considered so powerful a spiritual force...they focus our awareness inward, to our true selves, and from there, outward, to that which exists beyond the gross physical.

You're you. "Mike Potter" is a label. A very useful one, all things considered, but still just a label.

If you were on a desert island, and no one was there to perceive or speak of you, would you not still be who you are, inside?

I believe so.

Or a lot of them.

Happy or not, it will come. Nothing to be done for that. But I don't necessarily believe it's your last milestone. Believing that we just lie down that final time and close our eyes, and everything is lost...that makes no sense to me. Nihilism has always struck me as absurd.

That makes it sound very personal. I don't really believe any god makes it a habit to take people "because it's their time", though some may take those they have need or use for. Physical death is just the way of things. Plants, animals, people, worlds, stars...they all are born, grow and die. That's not to say such is the end.

Great.

__________________
What have you done for your people today?

Again, I see that this is my major stopping point. I have a problem with separating my body from my soul. Until I can accept this, I think I will continue to have issues with life and death. I'm starting to grasp it though.

I suppose not. With all that space out there, it would be a waste to think otherwise.


Maybe I should take a yoga class or something?

Mindblowing idea! So, what reason is there to improve this life, i.e. education, social interactions, job advancement, paying debts, etc. Once I'm dead, none of that will matter?

Very Zen...sort of the like tree nobody is there to hear fall, huh? Good point though.

I hope you are right.

I think we all hate to think of the possibility that life is all there is. Hence my reasons for starting this thread. I need to feel more certain that there is more. Consequently you have at least reinforced some of the ideas I have that there is. Thanks.

I would also suggest mushrooms, a wide variety of holy texts from around the world (with some quantum physics books) and a beautiful day, actually. But that's just me.

It may, but not in the same way we may think of it here.

Imagine you found yourself before a group of alien intelligences, or ancient souls, or something else in that vein. They ask you want you did with your life. What do you say? I went to school, I hung out with some friends, I got a promotion to head office flunky, etc.? That's no good. That's why I largely detest much of our society. You should be able to say not that you were a doctor, but that you healed people. Not that you have a doctorate in physics, but that you searched diligently for answers and knowledge for it's own sake. Not that you had a really big television to watch mind-numbing crap on, but that you cared for your family. Does that make sense?

I hope others decide to share their beliefs. I find it odd I'm the only one that responded.

__________________
What have you done for your people today?

By science, when your brain (and consequently your heart) stop working, you will die. You cease to exist as a live human, your conscious ends. But science does really take the mystery out of death.

As for the whole reincarnation thing. I'm not going to put my faith in the hope that I just might be reincarnated (especially with my trackrecord on this planet :P) But, I don't plan on spending time thinking about my death and/or an afterlife. We'll all find out eventually what, if anything, awaits at death.

The fact that I don't believe in God(s) or in having souls, kinda makes it hard for me to believe in an afterlife as well.

This takes us into the debate on legalizing drugs for human consumption...of which I am all for letting people do with their bodies what they will. But that is a topic for a different thread.

This makes perfect sense. Meeting your maker comes to mind. When it comes time to show my final resume, will I get hired to move on to a higher plane of existence? I still have quite a bit of life ahead of me, but I think so far I'm on the right track. But then again, I'm not that will be making that decision.

I too find it odd. Must be there just isn't that many people thinking religiously today. It is only friday...let's give it a couple days and check back. It would be nice to get a more wide array of opinions on something so uncharted. Where are all the atheists? Talk to you later...thanks for your input. Mike