Don't think of fire when I speak of roses.

God is Love.

You can't say religion is Evil because Evil is a Religious word. If you went to your community church which your parents should have taken you, you would have discovered that Chrisitanity is in one angle the denouncement of Evil and Principled Teacher of becoming behavior. Of course that whole concept is lost with you because your too much in denial, consequently ignorant and unwise that you actually think Religion is the enemy of peace and is bad for citizens to practice. In actuality, if you knew anything about how a nation is and were originally put together and how a nation functions you would know that a nation without Religion is inherently weak. Religion makes a nation strong. Why do you think those vicious Muslims put up such a fight? You know something, you're a real sad, empty, frustrated guy who's obviously dead inside and has no heart (even though you will try and convince people you do) and part of a group that has always been a cancer to community and society. You'd like to tear down religion because you're minority, abnormal beliefs have made you into an outcast. It's not the world who has a problem that needs to be eliminated, it's you and all your kind that fight against community and involvement and everything that's good in this world because you're a sick, empty, ugly person. Like I said before, it's people like you who sould be eliminated.

[quote]It's a construct of moral philosophy.

[quote="apotropoxy";p="348330"]No. religion is moral philosophy. The FIRST organized philosophy. You're just an atheist that has the unmitigated ordacity to defend the idea that religion is the enemy of peace. That is such nonesense, I am convinced that not only do you not understand religion in all its uplifting, great attributes but you also don't understand War. Count yourself lucky that you can sit there and argue that because its the great religious, principled men that go to war, fight and die to protect people like you. How dare you come on here and try to convince people religion is wrong and the enemy. Who the hell do you think you are? From what dying king did you steal that scepter from, huh!?

Not really. Throughout most of history, morality and religion were two seperate things. Religion predates moral philosophy. Religion was a way to come up with answers to unanswerable questions, typically resulting in metaphysical concepts and superstitious rituals. In a sense, the rituals became morality... If you did not make the proper sacrifice to so-and-so, you deserved to get eaten by a bear (and if you were eaten by a bear it was always assumed you did something that upset the gods).
Morality as we know it today is based on empathy. It seemed to strike the world over a certain period a few thousand years ago and it was a reation against the atrocities people saw in wars and such. Some religions incorporated the morality into religion, making up reasons for it in the context of religion. But the Greeks actually had moral philosophy as a seperate thing altogether from religion. And that is where most of today's deep moral philosophy is from. In the East also, Confucianism and Buddhism were essentially religions built around a philosophy rather than acting as the origins of that philosophy.
Actually atheists fight in the war too. And a lot of religious groups are opposed to wars... all wars. They are still principled and religious.
How is his claim that religion is the enemy any less arrogant than a claim that religion is necessary or a friend to all?

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

Yes, that's true. My reply was a little vague and misleading. However, you cannot argue that religion today is not also a guide to/of morality and principle.


[\quote]Morality as we know it today is based on empathy. It seemed to strike the world over a certain period a few thousand years ago and it was a reaction against the atrocities people saw in wars and such.[/quote]

And where is that written or what context are you referring to that is the guide to 'todays morality'



[\quote]Some religions incorporated the morality into religion, making up reasons for it in the context of religion. But the Greeks actually had moral philosophy as a seperate thing altogether from religion.. [/quote]

That's true.

[\quote]And that is where most of today's deep moral philosophy is from.
[/quote]

That's where you start to really push your false argument. You don't seem like a bad person but a thinking person.There are two ways to look at this which I assert you are wrong on both. There are two codes or morality. Morality cannot be defined by individual choice which is why there are moral codes. One is the state law, which is a form of morality and the other is the religious form. Now, my argument gets a little gray here although my main points are correct. The gray area here is my exclusion of other religions in the United States except christianity regarding the derivative of the other form of US codes of morality. Since this is a Western country, A christian country, the citizens' code of morality derives from the word of God and the physical preachings of Jesus. Don't give me any blather that Jesus's morality was based on Greek Philosophy because that's blasphemy, incorrect, and you know it is.

Next is the Federal Law. I was almost inclined to agree with you before I researched it. American Law is actually more derived from the Bible than any other influence also. American Law was basically adopted from British Law which was Religious Law. Separation of Church and State did not exist in England. However, it's still none-the-less absurd to suggest that since there's a separation of church and state in the US Federal Law, it was derived from Greek or Roman Law because as you know, Greek and Roman law was also Religious Law.

Also, if you want to go Globally, most countries that are not Religious Monarchs have not changed their religious practices.

Therefore, even if there are two foms or morality, religious and Secular state, most people are still religious, therefore follow a morality code of such, or they base their morality on state law which is derived from religion when religion was not separate, anyway.

This is off-topic obviously but my point is that Religion is the undoubtable global derivative of Morality in present society.



[\quote]In the East also, Confucianism and Buddhism were essentially religions built around a philosophy rather than acting as the origins of that philosophy.[/quote]

No one believes that but atheists. Religious people believe written scripture, moreover, morality (which the greek philosophers had questioned and developed) is divine. You can't secularize religious scripture because you think it was derived from the Greek (and to a lesser extant, Roman) philosophers.


True. I was using a national example for my argument when I should have used a Global perspective. Yes, there are religions that are opposed to war. That is part of the main debate here. However, I was in the Army and there's an old saying, "There ain't no atheists in a foxhole".

[\quote] How is his claim that religion is the enemy any less arrogant than a claim that religion is necessary or a friend to all?[/quote]

I'm sorry to know that the stupid morons have been able to break your spirit so deeply but it is not a matter of arrogance at all. I'll answer your first question with another question. If religion is and always has been a fundamental facet of society, has throughout most of organized society's history been the source of Morality, and always has been one of the pillars
for practice of, involvement in, and growth of community, how could you possibly assert it's anything but completely necessary? Not only that but who is to say that an atheist world is even possible. There has always been religion, no matter what society is discussed or how isolated the society is. There are a great deal of things science will NEVER explain or measureand there things science can explain and measure that make abolutely no sense, even to the scientists. That there lies a philosophy for the destruction of many of the the things that makes life pleasurable and worth living. I think you're on the wrong side of the fence kid.

As for your other question "How can I imply that religion is a friend to all?", the question is very encompassing and is big enough for a whole new topic. That question is much fairer that the rediculous notion that religion is ultimately or collectively evil.

I'll leave it up to you if want to pursue that conversation. But, the way I see it, granted if an atheist world was governable, who the hell would want to live in a world like that?; where nothing is sacraid but the state and materialism. Do you really think an atheist society would have better communities and more compassion than a religious one?

Dear God, man. You are always right. I believe it's finally time to do what I've done in the past when I've met colleagues like you on the forum that have their heads screwed on right. My Hat off to you, my good sir.

Woah, woah woah woah. I'm getting ahead of myself here. Java, I'm sorry. You're not the person I was directing my examination to. It's really FreeChina I'm directing my objection to. If you want to discuss the topic if religion is a friend to all or not, I'd be happy to.

Oh, by the way FreeChina, if you ARE Chinese, how can you say religion is Evil when your presumed secular country is planning on invading Taiwan? You know what that means if you invade Taiwan, right? You know what will happen, right? And you know what can POSSIBLY HAPPEN, Right!?

In truth, this old, stupid argument is fairly common, not true and is only a clever use of words for people that want to destroy religion. Religion is not the definative cause for war and the absence of Religion will not end War. War can never be ended and if it is ended in the future, it will come with a hefty price. The real causes for war in almost every case besides defending the nation's way of life, is revenge and plunder. Gain specifically is what really drives war and has been the real definitive reason for war since the beginning of its history, itself.There are many people who call the US a bully. This is untrue, we are the adversary of the bully and we always have been. That's the definitive cause for our wars (among other things of course). It's to protect the world from Bullys.

The only instance I can think of the US went to war unprovoked (either itself or one of our allies) is the Iraq campaign we are in right now, but HE was a bully to begin with. So, so much for that theory.

I don't expect religion to go away, but I expect it to adapt... as it has for all of history. I also expect people in an increasingly more integrated world to show more tolerance toward the beliefs of others provided the actions related to those beliefs do not hurt others. And I expect people to have full access to information to choose the religion they feel is right, not just to be stuck with the one they are born into or the state mandates.
Ultimately morality comes from human experience and is the product of individuals. Religion changes to encompass it or is replaced by a new religion that does encompass it. Such concepts as whether there is a god are in no danger of being proven or disproven... but there is no evidence to sggest one over the others. Religions survive or die based on how people feel they fare spiritually from participation in them. There is no reason the government should get in the way of the natural movements of religions.


No more likely than a world dominated by one religion. It would no doubt have to use the same tactics to put down dissenters. There should be no monopoly over people's souls or minds.


But would you put the old religions on the same pedestal you do your own now? I wouldn't. Old religions were groupings of superstitions with little moral substance. They served a purpose of holding the community together but were oppressive. Even the modern religions have periods of such behavior, typically when they take control of governments.
The atheists of America today have higher moral standards than the pagans of millenia ago. They may not believe in the metaphysics of religions, but most of them would not question the moral virtues that are most important to today's society... those that involve acting toward others as they would hope to be acted toward by them (many people do not act like this, but I've found what religion they claim to be is not a significant factor).


That is not a reason to give up on science. It is a reason to be careful how we approach new discoveries. The fact that we have ethical discussions about science shows that science does not destroy morality. Scientists spend a great deal of time debating the ethics of how to approach cloning and other questionable sciences.


I agree. That "religion is evil" concept was too simplistic and one-sided. I'd suggest religion is good and evil. There are also multiple facets. There is the religion of community and the spiritualism of the individual. Ultimately I find that the latter is the more friendly of the two and does more to make a better person in the same way that guilt is a better precauition than shame. Spiritualism allows a person to be more honest with God and it is a more universal experience, even if the variance is greater.


I don't believe it possible to have people find nothing sacred. If nothing else we find those things which make us human sacred. I don't believe the state can ever be considered sacred. It is simply a proxy for sacredness and a way to keep those in line that step on other people's sacred ground (liberty and life). Americans and maybe all people find life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness sacred, regardless of what god they propose to worship. Most people also find love sacred.
There should not be a universally atheist world. There should be a world where people can determine the faith to which they truly belong and respect the decisions of others in that.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside