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Old 12-07-2006, 05:39 AM
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Default Religious Conviction

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
- Blaise Pascal
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2006, 06:10 AM
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Default Why an afterlife?

I'm not very good at the quoting lark as I'm fairly new to computers and have a lot to learn, however, I will try and respond.
You say that you know there is some form of afterlife, I would replace "know" with "hope". I suppose it would be nice if there was an afterlife (come to think of it I "hope" there isn't because I am going to be in terrible trouble!). There is no afterlife and I cannot understand how people can have the audacity to presume there is, after all, if we couldn't think about it would there still be a heaven, is there an ant heaven is there a springbok heaven, I doubt it very much. There is one shot at existance and this is it, buy now to avoid disappointment. This is a bleak outlook I know but it is a reality. Why do people think there is something better?

The term "brainwashing" was indeed the wrong term to use, I cannot think of a better term, however, from the year of birth a child is subjected to the teachings of it's elders and this includes religion, where ever I child goes religion is there teaching that he/she will be punished for any wrong doing in the afterlife. Man was and will always be a "pack" animal, no man would wish to be out of the "pack" so no man would go against the "pack", so, if the "pack" says religion is right then religion is right. I would say that this "pack" mentality is also responsible for a lot of strife ie "my God is better than your God" so maybe it cannot all be blamed on religion, maybe it's down to man's wish to "belong" (sorry, thinking as I type!)

You say that the church now has little power. The Catholic Church decrees that contraception is wrong, so Catholics do not use contraception hence Catholics who are doing as they are told are subject to AIDS, unwanted children etc etc, no power there then! I believe that in Ireland faith is part of the constitution so no power there either! There are many instances of the power of the church in modern day life, don't get me started on muslims. I know that most religious people are peace loving etc but it only takes a few to stir things up.
In all I stand by my previous post though will apologise for the term "brainwashed", I do not do this to be "exclusive" as you put it, but, after much pondering, musing and experience I believe my previous post is the closest I can get to how I feel.
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Old 12-07-2006, 06:16 AM
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Default Sick of Religion

Religion is full of stuff that has little sustenance - you cannot dine on it - and too much of it will make you sick in spirit.
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Old 12-07-2006, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petshrew";p=&quot View Post
I'm not very good at the quoting lark as I'm fairly new to computers and have a lot to learn, however, I will try and respond.
You say that you know there is some form of afterlife, I would replace "know" with "hope". I suppose it would be nice if there was an afterlife (come to think of it I "hope" there isn't because I am going to be in terrible trouble!). There is no afterlife and I cannot understand how people can have the audacity to presume there is, after all, if we couldn't think about it would there still be a heaven, is there an ant heaven is there a springbok heaven, I doubt it very much. There is one shot at existance and this is it, buy now to avoid disappointment. This is a bleak outlook I know but it is a reality. Why do people think there is something better?
To the people who believe in an afterlife, it is real enough that they'd never consider its nonexistence. It is not audacity as much as simply what they believe. It cannot be proven or disproven.
I do not rule out the possibility of an afterlife but tend to find it unlikely that it would be based on deeds in life rather than a mental state or proximity...
I do understand why it upsets you that some believe in an incentive-based eternal afterlife... It can effect their ability to live in this life. The concept of Hell was practically created as a way to scare peasants into complacency. Heaven I feel is a bit more benign, as sometimes it helps inspire people to do good and it helps them to think some day they'll be reunited with loved ones. I see know harm in that. Sometimes people believe what is beneficial for them to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petshrew";p=&quot View Post
The term "brainwashing" was indeed the wrong term to use, I cannot think of a better term, however, from the year of birth a child is subjected to the teachings of it's elders and this includes religion, where ever I child goes religion is there teaching that he/she will be punished for any wrong doing in the afterlife. Man was and will always be a "pack" animal, no man would wish to be out of the "pack" so no man would go against the "pack", so, if the "pack" says religion is right then religion is right. I would say that this "pack" mentality is also responsible for a lot of strife ie "my God is better than your God" so maybe it cannot all be blamed on religion, maybe it's down to man's wish to "belong" (sorry, thinking as I type!)
Yeah. Religion is not the only thing that works this way, nor does it always work that way. Nationalism, political affiliation, social class, and race are used in the same way. But unlike those, sometimes religion is used for an individual's spiritual growth without regard to the pack. Most of the time, it functions in both ways.
But my guess is that if religion were removed, we would still have the pack mentality in other manifestations... but we would lose the personal and communal spiritual benefits that come with religion.

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Originally Posted by petshrew";p=&quot View Post
You say that the church now has little power. The Catholic Church decrees that contraception is wrong, so Catholics do not use contraception hence Catholics who are doing as they are told are subject to AIDS, unwanted children etc etc, no power there then! I believe that in Ireland faith is part of the constitution so no power there either! There are many instances of the power of the church in modern day life, don't get me started on muslims. I know that most religious people are peace loving etc but it only takes a few to stir things up.
In all I stand by my previous post though will apologise for the term "brainwashed" I do not do this to be
Many Muslims live in a part of the world that in many ways resemble the dark ages in Europe. In those areas religious authority still has nearly absolute power. But even so, occasional scholars challenge it. Perhaps we will see change in this.
As for the Catholics, they are not doing so well keeping their numbers up. Protestantism is on the rise in Latin America and many American and European Catholics are non-practicing. People choose whether or not to follow the rules or even to stay Catholic.
Even more bizarre to me are some new growing evangelical sects that are more conservative than the Catholics and reject even "natural family planning", believing that women should be barefoot and pregnant all the time.
Evangelicals scare me more than Catholics because they seem to be rebelling against everything about modern society. My belief is that their growth will taper off eventually and the movement will lose momentum within a generation.
Religion tries to change the world and in small ways it succeeds... but only when it's going the same way as the world. Usually the world changes religions.
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Old 12-07-2006, 06:38 AM
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Default The Virtue of Ignorance

The Garden of Eden was an earthly paradise in which ignorance was bliss. When Adam and Eve were banished from the garden for eating of the tree of knowledge, their ignorance was no excuse for violating God’s commandment. And ever since, their descendants, though the propagation of religious superstition, have been trying to make ignorance into a virtue.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:21 AM
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Default The benefits of religion

OK so religion has beneficial effects, it is comforting etc etc but does that make it right?
Cannabis is comforting etc but it's a sick bird
Like your avatar by the way it looks peaceful, is it?
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by petshrew";p=&quot View Post
OK so religion has beneficial effects, it is comforting etc etc but does that make it right?
Cannabis is comforting etc but it's a sick bird
Like your avatar by the way it looks peaceful, is it?
Yeah, it's a nice avatar. Can't remember where I found it. A coworker of mine has bookends that look like it. I'd want those, except my wife has something against random religious symbols in the house. I keep my Buddhas at work. But back to subject...
I don't see cannabis as harmful either.
Is there a problem with allowing religion to act as a crutch rather than inspiration? Maybe. But on the other hand, the ill effects of religion can be countered simply by logic while drugs have real physical effects. It is possible to have the good part of religion without the bad. The same is not true of drugs.
But as with drugs, sometimes religion does act as self-medication, a painkiller. When it does, I'd suggest it's because it is necessary. The problem is not the religion per se, but the forces that make painkillers seem the best way to deal with problems. Religion works wonders for helping us deal with the things we cannot change and cannot comprehend... but too often people allow it to limit their comprehension and limit what they can change.
The person living in a ghetto, surrounded by crime, having little opportunity... Is the terrible part that he turns to religion for comfort... or that he has nothing worldly to turn to?
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:46 AM
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Default The "Right" Religion

Choosing the right religion can be a tricky thing, for history records many - from the lowly to the high and mighty - that lost their heads over it.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:34 AM
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Default Fantasy land

So religion works it's magic on the person from the ghetto and all is right with the world because he knows that a better life awaits him (and putting one with the other, the rich man keeping him there will get his just deserts in hell). You think there is nothing wrong with this picture?
Maybe if the guy did not have his religious pacifier he might ask "where the hell is mine?"
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:51 AM
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So religion works it's magic on the person from the ghetto and all is right with the world because he knows that a better life awaits him (and putting one with the other, the rich man keeping him there will get his just deserts in hell). You think there is nothing wrong with this picture?
Maybe if the guy did not have his religious pacifier he might ask "where the hell is mine?"
Religion isn't the absolute source. Keep in mind that both the Protestant work ethic (which would tell the person to work harder or accept his lot) and socialism (which would say that he deserves human compassion as a human being) come from Christian philosophy.
What really keeps him at this level is the existence of laws that are necessary for social stability and the lack of economic opportunity or his lack of access to it or his lack of knowledge about how to access it. In this case, religion becomes the tool that helps him cope with this problem. Chances are the alternative would be to break the laws since he does not know how to create economic alternatives... This creates more problems.
Then there is always the chance that he really doesn't care and likes a simple, pious life. It happens.
Religion is not at the root. If anything it is an enabler... but the likelihood is that the other alternatives are worse (drugs, law-breaking).
The root to the problem is economic scarcity or a failure of society to move people to the places in the economy where they are needed.
With the opportunity available, people could turn an enabling religion into an inspiring one.

The point where I think religion hurts people is when it is used by parents as a proxy for their children for something that is really missing.
Religion tends to be the filler that goes where something else is lacking. It is the lacking that creates the problem.
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