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Old 12-07-2006, 09:33 AM
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I agree with most of what you say, however.....
There are people in this world, as you say, who do not have econimic resources open to them. There are people who, through no fault of their own, cannot, will not cope with the world around them. These people end up in poverty, why so? They have the same need for heat, food, kindness as you or I, they should be cherished as human beings. Instead they are "deprived" of even the most simple basics. All the while there are people so rich they will never spend the money they have, I know, it's not a fair world. Rich men will get richer poor men poorer and rich men will make money from poor men.
What grieves me is the fact that the poor turn to religion instead of standing up and doing something about their situation. You say it is a comfort and serves a purpose, I'm sorry but it isn't and it doesn't. The only thing it does is keep people in their places, ie more willing to accept their lot for their reward in heaven
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2006, 10:34 AM
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That's why Marx called religion the opiate of the masses.
But the reason they turn to religion is because there is no other hope. They could rise up and revolt and murder... but no good usually comes from this.
And when people do stick up for themselves they usually don't leave their religions behind. Gang members always seem to drop God's name before talking about killing people and selling drugs.
Revolutionaries often do their work in God's name and then bring their wrath down on those of other ethnicities.

I guess the kicker is that religion never actually starts conflicts or atrocities. But it often perpetuates it.
But there are other historical examples where religion provides the same support for people who did good. The abolition of slavery in the US is a prime example.
Most troubles have a problem that is based on economics or territory or over past conflict. Religion is simply the justification.
It's not good... but it's certainly not the root of the problem.
Strangely the modern religions are a little better in that they are partially based on reason (some more than others) unlike the pagan religions of past which were almost entirely superstition. With a fully superstition-based religion, anything can be justified. A moral and reason-based religion has limits which you can be sure at least some of the followers will catch.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:13 AM
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Ethics is the center of my religion. I have a strict code of ethics. Faith is a tool that I use to make myself follow it. My moral code is that I try never to cause, by action or inaction, anything for another person (or even animal) that, were I in their precise circumstances, I would not wish on myself. When I am tempted to break this code, I remind myself of the possibility of eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation as a consequence of doing so. If there is evil in my religion, I don't see where. In all seriousness, though, I won't be offended if anyone points out something immoral about my belief system. I am always looking to improve upon it.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:45 AM
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You have far too strong a focus on (*)(*)(*)(*)ation. The problem with that is that your behavior is shaped predominantly by negative incentives. There are two major problems with that.
1. It will make you feel like you're in a zero sum game. You cannot win but only lose. Your good deeds are in a sense your burden. You will, as time goes by, do only the minimal in good and avoid a lot of experiences out of fear of (*)(*)(*)(*)ation lurking around the corner. This kind of religion can paralyze you.
2.You may some day break under the stress and no longer hang on to the (*)(*)(*)(*)ation-crutch. Then you will be in moral anarchy until you restabilize... perhaps starting over... perhaps as something new.

For the sake of your own happiness if nothing else, you should focus on WHY you feel you should at the way you feel you should act. Concentrate on why it is good. Find the rewards, mostly personal, that incite you to good behavior.
And expand on it. What proactive things can you do to help people in the way you would have them help you?

Concentrate on the positive. It's hard at first. But eventually you'll find yourself wanting to do good rather than fearing Hell. The fear of Hell, IMO, only takes you closer to it.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
1. It will make you feel like you're in a zero sum game. You cannot win but only lose.
That is actually how I see the universe. To me, it is always better not to be (to lack consciousness) than to be. To be is to want, and to want is to be miserable. Heaven, then, is a state (or rather a lack thereof) in which one ceases to want and therefore, ceases to be. Hell is an infinitude of unsatisfied wants. I don't seek reward; I seek only to escape the punishment of existence. Suicide, though, is strictly forbidden in my religion, so I must live out my natural lifespan.

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2.You may some day break under the stress and no longer hang on to the (*)(*)(*)(*)ation-crutch. Then you will be in moral anarchy until you restabilize... perhaps starting over... perhaps as something new.
That is unlikely. My fear is simply too great.

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For the sake of your own happiness if nothing else, you should focus on WHY you feel you should at the way you feel you should act. Concentrate on why it is good. Find the rewards, mostly personal, that incite you to good behavior.
There aren't any rewards per se. Something eats me up inside if I don't do what I think is right. I have also given up on finding any logic in ethics. Ethics consists solely of emotions that may or may not be divinely inspired. I'll take the chance that they are.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:23 AM
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For the sake of your own happiness if nothing else, you should focus on WHY you feel you should at the way you feel you should act.
Maybe Force's Momma alwaya told him the way to Hell is paved with good intentions.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:39 AM
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For the sake of your own happiness if nothing else, you should focus on WHY you feel you should at the way you feel you should act.
Maybe Force's Momma alwaya told him the way to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Well, my parents have never really explained why they hold their beliefs, which, in all essentials, they have passed down to me, because I don't think they themselves know why they hold them. Certain things just must be and others just may not be. If pressed on such matters from a philosophical perspective, my parents (particularly my mother) will then simply give present their code of ethics as the only alternative to relativism. It is relativism that I have been raised to fear more than anything else, and my only way of feeling sure about ethical matters is simply to fall back on my parents' teachings.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:50 AM
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Default Hey Force

You need to talk to someone guy! If you are spending your life with no reward, not even your faith you are on a downward spiral and you need to pull out. I don't know where you live but I'm sure help is out there.
You cannot pour your troubles on this site because no-one here has the expertise to help and the posters on here, even though well intentioned, could do you more harm than good. Do you have some sort of minister?
Talk to him!
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:51 AM
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Relativism does seem to be the big phantom of religions these days. It seems to me that this is because religions now have to compete on the free market due to multiculturalism and the best strategy to keep your kids from straying or rationalize the superiority of your own religion is to call the consideration of any other belief system by that feared name.
The argument tends to be that if you can understand a religion of someone else or believe someone with such a viewpoint to be morally decent... then you also think the Nazis are morally decent! It's a BS argument.
In order to really have empathy you have to see things from a person's point of view. And just because you don't think someone is evil for calling God by another dream doesn't mean you don't think genocide is a great wrong and crime against humanity. If you ask me, "relativism" is essential to Christian ethics. How else can you understand how to treat people well? How else can you love the sinner and hate the sin?
But that's not a good insurance policy to keep the kids in the faith. So rather parents teach their kids to despise the religions of others and never even think that they might be somehow morally useful.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:22 AM
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So rather parents teach their kids to despise the religions of others and never even think that they might be somehow morally useful.
In the case of my parents, it wasn't that they wanted to keep me in a particular faith. They had, until my mother's re-conversion when I was 15, abandoned the supernatural beliefs of Christianity while holding on to its strictest ethical codes. My father is still basically secular. That just makes their beliefs all the more puzzling. Nonetheless, I was always presented with emotive arguments that certain actions and inactions (a very large number, in fact) were just too terrible and that anyone or anything that attempted to make me think differently was leading me down a slippery slope to relativism and valuelessness.
In a side note to petshrew, you need not be concerned about me. I don't attend any church, so I don't talk to clergy, but I am almost always like this. I know I'm not pleasant, but you don't have to worry about me.
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