I have spent HOURS talking to FeatheredFool about this. General viewpoint is:

FF: You must believe in what Jesus did for us to get into heaven (I'm sure more detail will be forthcoming so I'll leave it at that).

Me: You must lead a life that is good (i.e. Christian morals: helping others etc) but you do not need to believe in God and or Jesus to get in. God is forgiving, he can forgive lack or different version of faith. "What you do unto the smallest of my creatures you do unto me... blah blah blah" God works through you even if you don't know it, you do not need to believe solong as you lead a good life.

Discuss ...

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"Experience is the ability to recognise a mistake when you make it again."

the idea of the death of self.

Catz

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

This is a hard topic and there are so many opinons and thoughts about it. I respect FF but i am more for Garblers view.
I believe any rightous person can enter the kingdom of god, without believing in god. I feel for such a merciful God he would never let someone who didnt believe in jesus to go to hell. I also beive for him to have created us he knew we would be analysts and understand its almost impossible for some people to believe. There are also many topics in the bible which say there are issues to get in Faith, Love and that love is the most important, this doesnt say love to god either, however apparently there is a verse which saids almost exactly u have to believe in jesus.

If anyone could find this or tell me the verses i would be very appreciated!!

Basically i feel god understands and that anyone who is rightous can enter without having to believe in god

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The past is what makes us who we are dont make it your burdern

Ok people, lets get this clarified. Please stay with me and read the whole thing and try to understand everything i say:

(From Romans- a book in the bible)
The Jews and the Law

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[2]
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. (This is important becasue the jews rely on the laws to be 'righteous' and they rely on circumsision to be one of God's chosen people) 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[3] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.


Romans 3


God's Faithfulness

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. (The jews were the first people to have God's word: they were the 'chosen people' ie God's people)
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[1]
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[3]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[4]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[5]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[6]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[7]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[8]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Romans 4


Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[2]
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[3] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."[4] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5


Peace and Joy

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[2] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[3] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

ok, if you have read through this, then you should now understand, that if you are a christian, to get eternal life you have to believe and have faith in Jesus Christ, and God who raised him from the dead.


However, on the topic of people who have never heard of Jesus, and therefore cannot make that crucial choice, i believe strongly that God will judge them justly.

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"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the
same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present."
- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Heaven.. sit around all day with guys playing harps...hmmm

I prefer Valhalla.

Do battle all day.. if you get killed, reanimated the next day and repeat. Thats what the vikings consider as paradise.



All Hail Odin!!! (Thor is my personal favorite, but gots to give props to the big guy).

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

Where's the "I don't believe in Heaven or Hell" option?

Agnostics/atheists do make up a quite sizable proportion of the population, especially in the West.

When I was little, I cried after my dog died because my father told me she didn't get to go to heaven. (According to traditional Christian beliefs, animals do not have souls. No soul = no heaven.) My mother, who has a minor in comparative religion, consoled me by saying that heaven was what we wanted it to be, and if I wanted to see my dog in heaven, I would.

That is my idea of the afterlife-- a place where those who deserve rewards get the reward they choose, and those who deserve punishment get it in spades... and that is why I believe in one. There is little justice in this life, and @#$%!, some people need to get theirs (both the "good" who often go unrewarded and the "bad" who seem to get away with everything...)

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"Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the Unites States. Ask any Indian." ~Robert Orben

Presumably if your an athiest/agnostic you go to hell...it doesn't matter if you believe or not...

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"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the
same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present."
- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

All I got from this is that you should not claim to be part of a belief you do not share. So you shouldn't call yourself Christian unless you practice the teachings and believe in God. Nothing about getting into heaven through believing in Jesus; just about being true to yourself as nothing is hidden from God, and those who claim to be something they are not tend to be the ones giving it a bad name.

"His disciples ask him and say, "How should we fast? How should we pray? How should we give charity? What diet should we observe?" Jesus says, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are apparent before truth. After all there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed."

God sees all, do not believe in him just because it will get you something you want, stay true to your belief because he knows if you are fibbing!

Where in that passege does it say that the evil was ignorance and the good belief? All I could see was that it was saying that no Jew shold be bad so that someone else can be good. Just that the worse we are the more righteous God seems. And I would like to rephrase that (and I don't care if it's the Bible, people have been constantly paraphrasing on that since its inception) "no one is righteous bit, i would say that no one id always consistantly righteous. Everyone has done several things in their lives for which they seek forgiveness, solong as their heart is truly wanting forgiveness God gives it; why can't lack of faith be one of these things?

So that's saying that through knowing what is right we can see what is wrong? A non-believer can do that too. They aren't immoral, I was a non-believer for a while myself, and I still led a perfectly Christian life without God in it (pretty big hole in a Christian life I accept). All I can see that it says is that just by living under the rules you are not declared good, those who live under the rules, know where the line is, and object to those who cross it (whilst feeling very sorry if they themselves cross it) are going to be better off when they are brought before God.

Jesus saved EVERYONE from sin, and yes you could take it that this only counts if you believe he did it for us. I would, however, disagree. It says that "He did it to demonstrate his justice." I would say that justice would be shown to those who never had the chance to believe, for example those brought up in a country where Christianity is not in residence. I however beileve that those who have had beilef and turned their back on God would be treated very harshly. A just God, that is what Christians have, what kind of just God would penalise those who have led life as he wished them to save believing in him?

It says that he recieved circumcision as a sign of a gift he had. Does that mean that all non-circumsised people do not have that gift inside them? I would say not. Why then is it not possible for God to work through someone who does not believe. They wouldn't show signs of the belief, but the effect would still be there. “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." God would cover the sins of people who work for him, even if they didn't know it, this would include non-believers.

"Jesus died for the ungodly" - he died for those who do not believe in him or his cause. So he died to give us morals, he died to show us the way.

Jesus brings righteousness to everyone, even those who do not believe in him. (Too tired now)

I believe that the only people who would be penalised for their faith are those who turned there back on God and Jesus. I do not believe that a good person who does not believe will be prosecuted for that.

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"Experience is the ability to recognise a mistake when you make it again."

What sort of benevolent deity creates sentient beings only for the purpose of torturing them eternally for failing his little pop quiz?

Oh, my bad. That sort of deity wouldn't rightly be called benevolent, would he? He'd be a BAD, BAD DEITY.

But hey, birds of a feather...

Catz

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.