????

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

I apologize if I put words in your mouth. In other posts in these threads you've made comments like "I give you five years" or "someday, raytri, when you least expect it", which I've taken as implying that you think I will find God before too long.

I know you're kind of hesitant to discuss religion, and I don't wish to increase that hesitancy. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

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Man up.

Naw, I don't mind you putting words in my mouth. Obviously, you can take those words to mean different things. The five years thing is how long I think it will take for you to convert to conservatism (it may take longer for you to realize it and even longer for you to admit it.). The second quote is a reminder that we are at war and I haven't forgotten that I owe you big time.

As for religion, I will discuss it with anyone who shows respect and an open mind. I will not discuss it with people who have no control over their own hate. You don't fall into that category. I very much agree with sam here..."Proof there is, but see it not you do." I'm feeling kinda Yoda today - I reckon I should avoid that in the future.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Oh. Geez, I can be clueless sometimes, can't I?

That reminds me. Have you received your ACLU membership card in the mail yet? I also put you on MoveOn's mailing list.

I accept the possibility.

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Man up.

What? How did you forget the AARP?

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Nah, they're too young for you.

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Man up.

Again, I apologize for taking so long to respond and hope you will forgive me for this brief reply, but things have been very hectic for me during the past couple of weeks. The reason for the miracles during Moses’ time was because that was how God decided to reveal Himself to His chosen people. Moses never asked God to perform any miracles and God always became angry when the Israelites were impatient and sought proof that He was still with them during the Exodus from Egypt.

If you think about it, the fact that Israel is a nation today provides incredible proof of God’s existence. Any statistician surely must be awestruck by the perfect correlation between Israel being attacked, or conquered, by an enemy and the eventual demise of that enemy. Meanwhile, Israel continues to be restored as a nation even to this day, just as God promised.

Hey, no problem. I'm not in a hurry.

But why then, and not now? Does He really expect peoples' memory to be that long? The Israelites needed a demonstration 4,000 years ago, and it wasn't a one-time deal, either; it went on for a long time. Then we got another big demonstration 2,000 years ago -- although a lot of people who were around then seemed to have failed to notice. But since then, nothing.

Since God created the whole world, don't you think it a little odd that he would then choose a "chosen people"? I mean, were the Israelites better humans than, say, the folks living in South America or Africa?

Why would God play favorites?

Nothing lasts forever; wait long enough and you'll get revenge. Show me *any* civilization that was around back then that is around now. China, maybe.

Besides, what a great deal: being His chosen people doesn't mean you won't get conquered or enslaved; it means your far-distant descendants will get to live in the same place -- after a couple of thousand years of diaspora and shortly after a few million of them are slaughtered, of course.

If the contract were phrased like that, nobody would sign it. Heck, I'd rather be Chinese. Maybe God is a Confucian?

Showing that any of us have God's favor, as reflected in material, physical things, doesn't really work. I'm an agnostic and I have all the material things I want. That doesn't make sense in your theology. Of course, I'm happy with my inner life, too, and that doesn't make sense, either. But I'll accept the usual argument that I'm just deluding myself.

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Man up.

I’ve often wondered why the Israelites were so quick to think that God had abandoned them during the Exodus. After all of the incredible miracles that made it possible for the Israelites to leave Egypt, one would expect them to have graciously fallen on their faces during periods of trial in thankful anticipation for the next miracle God was about to perform. The reality is, however, that they didn’t. The Israelites repeatedly became impatient and thought that God had abandoned them when times were tough.

When I travel, my dog (Duke) stays at a kennel. Sorry for the non sequitur, but bear with me. I know Duke enjoys the place, because he always gets excited when we pull into the parking lot. Even so, whenever I pick him up, he runs down the hall and jumps all over me for several minutes. To me it seems as though he might think after a few days that I have forgotten about him and will never return. It must seem like a long time to him when I’m away.

Perhaps it’s not that God expects people to have long lasting memories, rather that people are impatient. My dog thinks in dog time, people think in people time and God thinks eternally. In the grand scheme of things, 4,000 years is the blink of an eye.


It’s pretty amazing that after 2000 years the world is still debating the power of someone who was so unnoticed by His own generation, especially since most authenticated records of Jesus’ life only encompass about three years. The incredible nature of the miracles performed by Jesus were sufficient to transcend time.



To me it seems as though Christians learn to love God as an adopted child learns to love an adoptive father, whereas Jews seem to have an innate love for God. My guess is that Jews are God’s chosen people for precisely this reason (i.e., Jews love God deeply). Of course this is a generalization and I really have no earthly idea.

Three points: China never arose from the ashes after two thousand years; the Chinese People were never scattered about the world only to be gathered back to their original homeland; and, Israel has always been tiny, especially when compared to a nation as historically formidable as China.

God does not work in the ways we expect Him to, which is why trying to intellectualize His existence is pointless. Regardless of anything that God allows someone to suffer, in the end everything works out better for those who trust God. In response to a question about why so many Jews have been mercilessly slaughtered throughout history, God has kept His promise to Abraham of establishing an everlasting nation. Why the people God loves the most seem to be required to endure the most is a mystery to me.

I highly recommend reading the Book of Job. Even for someone who does not believe in God, Job is worth reading for its poetry and it will give you an idea of how God feels about people questioning His motives.


One of us has to be deluding our self. The question that will only be answered after the moment of our deaths is “which one?” I truly wish I had something to offer that could impart faith, but I don’t. It would be egotistical on my part to believe I could convince you of that which only God is capable.

Fair enough. Although Him being omniscient, He's got to know how much trouble that different time frame causes.

Actually, I can think of two straightforward reasons why God doesn't reveal himself today: One, he doesn't care if we worship him or not (which actually is a trait I would respect highly). Two, he doesn't need us to believe in him NOW, and will reveal Himself if and when the need arises.

But if he doesn't reveal himself, I don't think he ought to penalize (through eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation) those who, quite reasonably, don't believe.

An interesting and honest answer. Thanks.

True, but my point was merely to demonstrate that the disappearance of all of ancient Israel's oppressors is hardly surprising, and does not need divine intervention to explain.

I agree with the first point, but find the second point unprovable. Also, though I recognize that God is not required to act in ways we understand, neither am I required to accept the way God acts. If his way of expressing love is allowing his favorite people to get slaughtered and enslaved, I'll have to pass, thanks. He makes His choices, I make mine.

I may do that. I appreciate the Bible as literature, and recognize that there is historic information contained in there as well.

LOL. Agreed. Admittedly your potential downside (nonexistence) is a lot smaller than mine (Hell). But I have to believe that if there is a God, then how I live my life matters more than whether I believe in Him. If not, then He doesn't deserve worship anyway and I'll take the elevator to Hades on principle.

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Man up.