Well, if I murder someone and claim I had religious motivation to get the jury to sympathize with me, that says nothing about religion. It just says something about me. Unless I really do it because of my religion. But there is no evidence of that. Religion might just be a vehicle we use. Like people who murder their family because they lost their job, they didn't murder their family because they lost their job, but because they are crazypeople.

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From each according to his ability, to each according to his lack thereof.
109:8!

not the same.

if you look at history you can see plenty of cases where leaders used the concept of a "divine mission" to go to war against others, or to persecute others.

from over here (and also frombeing in a Muslim country for part of the war) it was pretty clear that there was a kind of "crusader" element to it.

it wasn't one sided. I remember talking to people who considered jihad against the invaders. I think it was only talk - but still - th emore it came across as a war on Islam, (which it often did) the more this reaction was likely.

I don't like that it was couched in religious terms. It muddied what the real issues were - and they were muddy enough without religion being thrown into the mix.

The point is that bad people invoking religious motivation can't really be used to bash religion.

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From each according to his ability, to each according to his lack thereof.
109:8!

This pretty much sums up the thread topic.

Of course, the same was already said in post #4 and beyond. And it'll probably be said again anytime soon

so you would agree then, that when people talk negatively about Islam and Muslims because some are terrorists, they are wrong?

I think that those muslims do their act because the Quran tells them to.
That of course is the fault of the religion.
And I agree that many acts that Christians do can be traced back to the religion.
But Bush saying "I do this for God too, you know", isn't really that.

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From each according to his ability, to each according to his lack thereof.
109:8!

if its interpreted that way - however have you actually read the Quran?

if you lift a whole lot of quotes and join them to gether you can get a bible for jihad.

But if thats not what you are after, you can see other things.

I think there is a lot ofwisdom in the Quran, just as in the bible. some of it is excellent, and I can't believe I am reading a document from the 7th century.

other bits ... well ...

but I would say the same of the bible.


I disagree, essentially it is.

and whats more - many peaceful Muslims will see this stance taken by Bush, or by Americans, and feel their religion and way of life is under threat.

invoking God in a war is a tricky business and not to be recommended.

I keep that in mind.

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From each according to his ability, to each according to his lack thereof.
109:8!

So when Christ said, "I come not to bring peace, but the sword," that's not encouraging war? And when god demands genocide of any who are not his chosen people all throughout the book of Joshua Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, and beyond, that's not your religion?

Bush could back up his actions with the bible easily.

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"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." - Isaac Asimov

The only purpose of atheism is to get people to accept communism, so that's a violent religion too.

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From each according to his ability, to each according to his lack thereof.
109:8!