You believe that there is no God. Everything has happened because of Quantum Physics and the timing and elements were just right for life to not only form on this world, but to develop into complex organisms (as we humans have no become). NOTHING happens for a reason, in fact it's all about timing and luck. May the strongest and fittest survive. After all, that's how the animals do it in the real world, like the jungle or desert or wherever their natural habitats are.

OK.......then why do we consider killing wrong? Especially if you kill a wealthy person to take their money. Why is stealing wrong? If you stole a good supply money does that NOT help you and your family get further down the road???? What's so wrong about that?? If we have naturally evolved into our present state......than EVERYTHING should be permissible in the realm of survival of the species. Does a lion not eat what it is able to eat......does it care if it kills, or steals from another lion??? All the lion cares about is staying alive. why oh why would we 'invent' a conscience that goes directly against our main objective in life which is to live as long as we can and preserve our family????? Who can answer this?

How can you consider a person good if he or she doesn't steal to help advance the instincts of our species? If we (as humans) didn't do everything necessary to advance our cause (as a species) than we would have never developed from a monkey or ape........which is why we DIDN'T.

think about it........

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II Cor 4:18

it's wrong because kings and governments have used morals and religion to keep the population under control and managable. in the same way a dog knows it's wrong to poop on the carpet.

it's wrong because kings and governments have used morals and religion to keep the population under control and managable. in the same way a dog knows it's wrong to poop on the carpet.[/quote]



If what you're saying is true, it means that a King most certainly would have to come before Religion.......however the Bible on many accounts gives examples of Kings being held accountable for their actions, whether good or bad.....of course what IS good or bad if everything has evolved naturally?

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II Cor 4:18

Simple, the reason hese types of things are wrong is because human civilization would not be able to exist or survive if we as a society allowed everyone to steal, murder, and do other bad things.

The animal word doesnt have civilization and thats simply how they live. We dont.

Morals and religion are just used as a way to make people more easily oby these rules.

So you're saying that since day one (whenever that is if we'd 'evolved') that we've ALWAYS been civilized???? How's that possible?

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II Cor 4:18

I tell you what......Murder and Stealing is an easy one. Answer this......you are very late for an important meeting, you run into Target to get an item that you need for that meeting. On the way back out to your car you notice a elderly lady struggling to get her bags into the trunk of her car........do you help her thus causing yourself to be later? If yes why?

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II Cor 4:18

I never said that. I never implied that. What are you talking about?

I help the granny because her hardship is worse than my being late.

So what if her hardship is worse.......why do you WANT to help. That's the question.....

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II Cor 4:18

First, please note that agnostics don't "believe there is no God." They don't *know* if there is a God, and don't particularly care.

Atheists are the ones who believe there isn't a God.

I suppose "antitheists" would be the ones who believe in God, but dislike Him/Her/It.

Sorry. Pet peeve of mine, being an agnostic.

On to your question: Printer2 hit it on the head. We are a social, cooperative species, because social, cooperative behavior improves our overall chances of survival. But to sustain a social, cooperative culture, there have to be ground rules.

Historically, as a rule, stealing and killing weren't considered wrong so long as you did it to the tribe next door. It was stealing and killing within your *own* tribe that was taboo.

The Israelites, they of the vaunted 10 Commandments, didn't seem to have a problem with taking land, lives and property from the people who already inhabited their Promised Land.

Plenty of other people who believed in God and a creator behaved that way. Witness the Crusades, for instance. Or the Vikings.

And before the rise of monotheism, many people believed in Gods that actively rewarded prowess in battle or striking down one's enemies. Many Christians incorporated similar sentiments into their own beliefs.

So I really don't think "religion" is the antikilling, antistealing force you think it is.

As for altruism: Study some nature. Other social/cooperative species, not just humans, tend to exhibit altruistic behavior even though it is personally costly for them: monkeys band together to defend their young, for instance, regardless of whose young they actually are.

Whatever other benefits it might convey, altruism tends to increase one's social status and cement relationships, which are important to success among social animals. And because it's important, such acts are rewarded -- even if only by increasing the self-esteem of the actor.

So I'll help the little old lady because it makes me feel good to do so. Crudely, it also demonstrates my power, as I am *able* to help the little old lady.

In the long run I benefit because if doing nice things makes me feel good, I'll keep doing them. Gradually I'll acquire a reputation for doing nice things and my social status will be enhanced, as will my chances of finding a mate, keeping a job, etc.

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Man up.

Its very simple. One day, we will be old, and on that day, someone will help me.

...

You're argument that morality cannot exist without religion is rediculous, because it can and it does, and you are directly contradicted by the bible:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8;&version=31;

Basic morality is something that is encouraged in every culture in the world. Remember, there are two facets to evolution:

1) the individual evolves to better survive

2) groups of individuals evolve to work together for mutual benefit. civilizations who cooperate with eachother and don't kill eachother, etc, are more likely to survive than civilizations who don't.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it is not suprising that there is a conflict in society between good and evil. Good is represented in #2, while #1 is essentially selfishness, sometimes leading to evil deeds.

Many atheists would argue that religion evolved because it helped make sense of the relationship between an individual and society, and encouraged individuals to respect eachother and treat eachother with kindness.

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"The belief that nothing exists outside your own mind--surely there must be some way of demonstrating that it was false" - 1984