Ok. First off, the word "evolution" is tossed around a lot, some of which is truth and other parts are simply conjecture. When *I* say evolution, i'm referring to the parts of it that have mountains of evidence, and not the "theory" part of it, as there are different levels of subscription to belief in this theory of evolution. First i'd like to say that i am not a biologist and i am looking at the issue from a perspective on how it relates to religion. In my introduction to this post, I'll start by listing the stuff that i do not mean when i use the word "evolution" :

Theory 1) Some scientists say God does not exist and life was created solely by evolution.

This is merely the opinion of the person expressing it. Science as yet cannot fully comprehend the molecular interactions of essential protiens in our body, let alone come up with a comprehensive step by step assessment of how *exactly* evolution and not god created life 4.5 billion years ago and sustained it, and even more daunting, it cannot possibly find the archaological evidence to prove that this, indeed, is how it went down.

Theory 2) God is not required for life to occur.

This is plausable but i still do not agree. *Something* created the universe. Technically, I am agnostic, but I am more religious than most agnostics and I would not be suprised to find myself converting to christianity sometime in the future.

Theory 3) Some divine entity created the matter in the unverse and the natural laws of it, including evolution, let it develop into something interesting, and hasn't done much/anything since.

This theory is very plausable. I wouldn't deny it, but again, it's impossible to prove and doesn't have much to do with Christianity, so i'm not going to focus on it.


The following i DO believe about evolution:

1) Most if not all of species on this earth were created when they evolved from other species. ( This is not to say that God didn't tweak the process at some point, kick start it, or possibly create some traits of humans, IE: wisdom, out of whole cloth. )

2) All animals, at each generation, are constantly evolving to better suit their environment, which is usually an improvement over what was before.

3) The same applies to Humans.

4) human ideas ( ethics, political structures, science, etc ), evolve to better suit humans in the society.

When i refer to "evolution" as it relates to christianity, in my below posts, I am refering to #3 and #4. #1 and #2 i also believe but they don't have much to do with christianity and, like #3 and #4, have mountains of scientific evidence.

...

*How evolution works*

Lets start with the basics:

Offspring are similar but slightly different than their parents. Everyone knows this. The biology behind this is very complex, and i'm neither fully qualified nor inclined to defend the biological aspects, as everyone knows that offspring are similar but slightly different from their parents.

The backbone of the theory of evolution states that as the generations pass, and the family tree spreads out, humans will become much more significantly different from eachother, and will compete with eachother based on their various faults or advantages of each, to decide who dominates the earth. Thus, as weaker variations are weeded out and strong attributes are solidified, humans will become more and more advanced over time. This is derived from the above fact that offspring are similar but not identical to their parents, and is explained in much greater detail with much fewer assumptions in your basic biology textbook.

Human ideas also evolve in a similar but not identical way... The ideas still compete with other ideas, but they arn't constrained to as similar to ideas that came before. The ones that work, survive, the ones that don't work either die off or are burried in archaology for our entertainment.

...

Anyhow, There are three facets to evolution:

1) SELFISH: Humans evolve to survive in a dog-eat-dog world. intelligence, strength, deception and all kinds of evils come from this.

2) GOOD: Humans evolve to work together in communities, punishing those who are evil and rewarding those who are kind, generous, cooperative, etc. By this process of evolution, Empires rise and fall based on the mutual cooperation of their people. Murderers, theives and sinners in general are weeded out of the populace. philanthropy to those who truly need it, is encouraged. This is the facet of evolution most related to religion, and for good reason.

3) USELESS: Stuff that evolved out of association with other traits, out of a quirk in the biology or simply by chance, which serves no obvious purpose. These traits do not directly help the individual survive ( might even hurt ) and does not *seem* to serve any purpose whatsoever. Some of these practices are encouraged in religion, some are discouraged, and i have no idea why, perhaps there is some complex evolutionary reason behind it that i do not understand. The ones that are discouraged are often referred to as "Abominations" in the bible, though the term is not used exclusively for these. The easiest example to come up with would be Homosexuality. In theory these quirks should disappear over time, and if they don't disappear there is probably some subtle, incomprehensable reason why they benefit either #1 or #2, or at least a biological or psychological reason as to why they can't be removed easily.

Ok.

I cannot stress the above enough. I would be completely lost in religion if i did not understand the above 3 points, as i wouldn't know what to make of anything in the bible without simply memorizing dogma and calling it enlightenment.

Knowledge of the above 3 facets of evolution ( as i so un-eloquently dubbed them: selfish, good and useless ) is, in my opinion, indispensable to a healthy understanding of religion.

It explains a lot of difficult questions very well:

- Why god made all of these rules: To help us cooperate together, which, if you suscribe to certain religious beliefs, would make us better equipped to eventually serve god. As we have demonstrated with #2, those empires who's citizens have ethics will flourish, while those who's citizens are wicked and disloyal will likely be overrun.

- Why there are seperate religions and seperate cultures, and seperate countries competing on the earth: The "Good" type evolution ( #2 ) would not occur nearly as easily without some kind of competition between nations.

There is also numerous evidence of human evolution in the bible:

Jesus and the Prophets often refer to "This Generation" implying that a following generation will be less wicked than the current one.

There are also the following biblical passages, which in my opinion, relate to evolution:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5;&version=31;
Matthew 3:10
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=31;
Matthew 13:47-50
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=31;

and other similar lines.

I also do not believe that evolution contradicts the bible unless you take genesis literally.

" But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. "

2 Peter 3:8

Implies to me that you shouldn't take the dates literally, at least.

Anyway, I really wish that the major religions would not attack, shun, or ignore the theory of evolution, as knowledge of the theory really helps when one sets out to understand religion.

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"The belief that nothing exists outside your own mind--surely there must be some way of demonstrating that it was false" - 1984

I think that there are so many things that cannot be explained by evolution. On the other hand, I think evolution is pretty much the result of "the survival of the fittest." Changes are usually too subtle to notice in one person's lifetime. If you notice that people have generally gotten taller over the course of the last two centuries or so, you can easily explain why. Height being generally considered attractive - and in the days before C-sections small women often died. Without the ability to change, many many species would be wiped out.

In order for creationism to be proved to me, I only need look around my own backyard. I'm just in awe of chameleons. Surely, it took a supreme being to create such a defense mechanism. An omniscient God would know the necessity of the ability to adapt. Left to chance, everything would be extinct in a few short centuries.

__________________
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~Ronald Reagan

For instance? Perhaps I can make some of that clearer for you.
In the realm of farming and ranching, it isn't. It's a matter of breeding for the purpose of producing specialized crops or animals to serve specific purposes.
Except in animal husbandry and plant hybridization.
It's a change in nutrition, medical treatments and hygiene--additional proof that the mechanisms of evolution can be utilized for intended results.
Now explain to me and to creationists why it's the chamelion and not God's Chosen human being that has such powers. Why can a shark regenerate teeth while humans have to put up with toothache and abscess. Explain why 90% of this planets animals are marine and not land-critters like us.
Then why hasn't God given the human being the ability to adapt to marine living, such that we have to rely on our mechanical devices for that.

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Why would an avowed atheist need to "explain" things to me? No, thanks.
I thought we were talking about nature.
Why do humans need to change colors? Grow more teeth? Live in the water? Why hasn't evolution provided those things?

I find it quite bizarre for an atheist to spend all their time on a religion forum. Even more bizarre is how many atheist actually believe they know the Bible better than Christians.

__________________
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~Ronald Reagan

You proclaim I'm an atheist based on what? Face it--you're clueless and that's why you can't even come up with specifics. Come up with specifics.

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Otherwise said, you proclaim that nothing we eat or breed is natural. Therefore humans are just as much a creator of life as God is, huh--God is nature and humans and human creations are unnatural. Cute.

You answer my questions first and then I'll answer yours. As to the teeth deal, do you figure that this is God's way of subsidizing the dental industry? Or are dentists actually demons working against the will of God?

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Terribly sorry to make that assumption, dear. From most of your posts, you do seem to have a great deal of venom for Christianity. But, of course, you must be berachah.

Specifics? What an arrogant, pretentious thing to say. You want to "explain" things to me and get mad when I don't care to hear your explanation? LOL Did you miss the IMO at the beginning of the post? Is a chameleon a specific? Why would anyone compare natural evolution to animal husbandry?

__________________
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~Ronald Reagan

You're not leaping, you're flying.

My questions were not intended to elicit answers from you. I have a shocking ability to get answers elsewhere.

__________________
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~Ronald Reagan

Be that as it may, you should know that this is a board where more than just you is registered to post, so it follows that you should expect responses from all who are registered. If you want private, stick to email.

Animal husbandry is the use of natural evolution; without the mechanisms of natural evolution, animal husbandry---or plant hybridizations for that matter. Why are you fixated on just the animal?--would not exist at all. Get real.

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What's arrogant is your unilateral proclamation that you know anything about me. When you refuse to provide specifics, you're admitting that you can't back up your false claim.

It is a false claim. Either prove your claim or eat your words--or lose all credibility. Choice is yours.

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