Now, this evidence will refute two claims:

1. This evidence will refute some Muslims who do not accept the HADITHS as legislation and rules to be followed.

2. This evidence will also present to Non-Muslims that Islam is the final religion of Allah(YHWY - named in the Old Testament). That the same Creator who gave the Quran and also gave the truthful parts of the Old Testament to the Prophets(Book of the Prophets). Atleast, this evidence will be a sign or a hint that Islam has been promised to be revealed after Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) ascension to heaven alive(without crucifixion according to Islamic texts and sources).

The Biblical (Old Testament/Book of the Prophets) evidence with various translations:


ZECHARIAH 11:17


( New International Version ) -

17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!"

( King James Version ) -

17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

( The New King James Version ) -

17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, Who leaves the flock! A sword [shall be] against his arm And against his right eye; His arm shall completely wither, And his right eye shall be totally blinded."

( New Revised Standard Version )
11:17
Oh, my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be completely withered, his right eye utterly blinded!

( Young's Literal Translation )

17 Wo [to] the worthless shepherd, forsaking the flock, A sword [is] on his arm, and on his right eye, His arm is utterly dried up, And his right eye is very dim!'


Islamic evidence stated in the Hadiths:


Sahih Muslim -

Book 001, Number 0327:

'Abdullah reported on the authority of his father 'Umar b. Khattab that he heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) say: I was sleeping when I saw myself making circuit around the Ka'bah, and I saw there a man of fair complexion with straight hair between two men. Water was flowing from his head or water was falling from his head. I said: Who is he? They answered: He is the son of Mary(Prophet Jesus,peace be upon him). Then I moved forward and cast a glance and there was a bulky man of red complexion with thick locks of hair on his head, blind of one eye as it his eye was a swollen grape. I asked: Who is he? They said: He is (Masih)Dajjal(Anti-Christ). He had close resemblance with Ibn Qatan amongst men.

Sunan Abu Dawud -

Book 37, Number 4306:
Narrated Ubadah ibn as-Samit:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I have told you so much about the Dajjal (Antichrist) that I am afraid you may not understand. The Antichrist is short, hen-toed, woolly-haired, one-eyed, an eye-sightless, and neither protruding nor deep-seated. If you are confused about him, know that your Lord is not one-eyed.

Hasan

As a Muslim, can you please explain something to me? The Qur'an states that Allah is deceitful, so how do you know when to trust a god who says he will lie when it suits his purpose? I don’t mean to be inflammatory, but this has always puzzled me. In Judaism and Christianity, we know that God always speaks the truth and that Satan mixes truth with lies to confuse people. If Allah lies some of the time, what makes him more trustworthy and dependable than Satan?

• And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah.
  Qur'an 3:54

• Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah.
  Qur'an 8:30

• That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
  Qur'an 4:157

Sam,


Deuteronomy 20 expresses similar characteristics of Allah(swt) meaning that YHWY is Allah(swt). The name change is similar to what happened to prophet Abram(Abraham)(pbuh). The evidence stated in Deuteronomy concerns similar characteristics in the Quran.

DEUTERONOMY 20:

10 ¶ When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 and when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18 that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

Allah(swt)/YHWY gave us hints of a name change(from YHWY/ELOHIM to Allah) through Abraham(peace be upon him):

Genesis 17:5 -

" Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. "

This just one example but the reason I posted this is because it corresponds and connects with an Islamic Hadith:


Sahih Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 212:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Zainab's original name was "Barrah," but it was said' "By that she is giving herself the prestige of piety." So the Prophet changed her name to Zainab.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 213:
Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab:

That when his grandfather, Hazn visited the Prophet the Prophet said (to him), "What is your name?" He said, "My name is Hazn." The Prophet said, " But you are Sahl." He said, "I will not change my name with which my father named me." Ibn Al-Musaiyab added: So we have had roughness (in character) ever since.

The reason why Allah(swt) states the Quranic verses you presented,Sam, is because he controls who enters heaven and Hell. He knows all!

Sahih Muslim:

Book 042, Number 7139:
'Abd al-Rahman b. Abu Bakra reported on the authority of his father that a person praised another person in the presence of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), whereupon he said: Woe be to thee, you have broken the neck of your friend, you have broken the neck of your friend-he said this twice. If one of you has to praise his friend at all, he should say: I think (him to be) so and Allah knows it well and I do not know the secret of the heart and Allah knows the destined end, and I cannot testify his purity against Allah but (he appears) to be so and so.

Finally,

Quran 6:107
" If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs. "

Quran 10:99
"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! "

I appreciate the information, but nowhere in Deuteronomy, or in the rest of the Bible that I’m aware of, does God say He will lie or deceive. While it is true that God instructs the Israelites to be brutal at times, there is no comparison between God’s judgment against His enemies and Allah lying to his servants. Lying is not compatible with the perfect character of God and besides He has no need to lie. If God wants something to be done, it will be done, there is no reason for God to deceive in order for His Will to be carried out.

Regarding the name of God, if you are saying that the Qur’an states that God’s personal name is not Yahweh/Jehovah, then that is a huge problem for me. The name of the God of Abraham is Yahweh/Jehovah (Exodus 6:3), not Allah. If you are saying the nature of God changed in some way, causing His name to change as was the case with Abraham, then that’s also a problem because God is immutable (1 Samuel 15:29, Psalm 102:12, Psalm 102:25-28, Malachi 3:6). On the other hand, if you are saying that “Allah” is not the personal name of God, but a title, then my understanding is that “Allah” was a title used for lesser gods.

I obviously do not know a lot about Islam, but have researched it enough to know that Allah told Muhammad that there would be times when he would lie to him and that Allah made it a point to disavow the crucifixion of Jesus. The fact that the Qur’an states that Allah purposely deceived people into believing that Jesus was crucified is a major red flag for me. Again, if someone is praying to a god who lies, (s)he cannot be praying to the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus. How could it even be possible to know what Allah’s true name is, if he cannot be trusted to tell the truth?

It isn’t my intention to offend you by an means, but I am sure that I have in responding to your post, so please forgive me. Earlier you said that parts of the Old Testament are not truthful. What chapters/verses were you referring to?

Sam,

The Quranic verses you gave are NOT evidence that Allah(swt) lies.

The terms "Scheming" and "Planning" are NOT equivalent or similar to "Lying".

Also, it is best to LEARN Arabic to really understand the words used in the Quran and to read over the TAFSIR(interpretation of the Quran):

http://www.tafsir.com/

Let us see where the word lying is used:

Quran 9:42 -

" If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them. They would indeed swear by Allah, "If we only could, we should certainly have come out with you": They would destroy their own souls; for Allah doth know that they are certainly lying. "

*"Scheming" and "Plotting" is NOT "LYING" !

In the case of Allah(swt) because he is the creator and all knowing THEN we could conclude that he automatically knows the heart and minds of all of his creation. Could we agree on this?

For it states in the Quran 2:115 -

" To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the purpose of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing. "

Now let us return to the verses you presented and look at the words used by three translators:

003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
SHAKIR: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

008.030
YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.
SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

THEREFORE your conclusion which you stated earlier is false:

The Qur'an states that Allah is deceitful, so how do you know when to trust a god who says he will lie when it

He is NOT deceitful and he does NOT Lie! Allah(swt) always keeped his promises even in the Old Testament(which contains weak JEWISH Oral traditions) and it continued into the Quran and Hadiths in Islam.

Islam is NOT a BALAAM-like inspired belief. It was even prophecied by Judas Maccabee in 1st Maccabee 4:44-48 that Islam would come -

1Mac 4:44
And when as they consulted what to do with the altar of burnt
offerings, which was profaned;

1Mac 4:45
They thought it best to pull it down, lest it should be a
reproach to them, because the heathen had defiled it: wherefore
they pulled it down,

1Mac 4:46
And laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a
convenient place, until there should come a prophet to shew what
should be done with them.

1Mac 4:47
Then they took whole stones according to the law, and built a
new altar according to the former;

1Mac 4:48
And made up the sanctuary, and the things that were within
the temple, and hallowed the courts.

This was prophecied 150 years before Prophet Jesus and Prophet John(John the Baptist)(peace be upon them),these two are considered prophets in Islam.

The point is Prophet Jesus nor John(peace be upon them) never said anything about the stones.

However, it is known in Islamic source that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ordered the stones to be cleaned which later an Ummayyad Khalif built the Dome of the Rock over it !

As for the NAME of Allah(swt) compared with ELOHIM,ADONIS,YHWY or Yahweh....

It is known that many Jews used ELOHIM or ADONIS in the original HEBREW and it is also known in ROMAN history that the name "ADONIS" was of pagan origins.

Will Durant's book titled 'Ceasar and Christ' on pages 522 and 523 it states:

" the resurrection of the god Tammuz was still hailed in the towns of Syria with the cry, "Adonis (i.e.,the Lord) is risen," and his ascension into heaven was celebrated in the closing scenes of his festival. Similar ceremonies commemorated in Greek ritual the agony,death, and resurrection of Dionysus.

The Hebrew version of the Book of DEUTERONOMY states:

DEUTERONOMY 17:1(KJV of the Bible) -

1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evil-favoredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

DEUTERONOMY 17:1( in HEBREW ) -

"lo-tizbakh la adonai elohei kha shor vase asher yihye vo mum kol davar ra ki to avat adonai elohei kha hu: "

SECOND,

I never implied or stated that ALLAH(swt) lied in the book of DEUTERONOMY I just expressed that his similar characteristics which are in the Quran are stated in the book of DEUTERONOMY.

Allah(swt)'s name back in the Hebrew language was Yahweh but when it was time for the Quran to be revealed to the Arab population, the name Allah(swt) was adopted and used to convey the message(The Quran).

Quran 59:23 -
"Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him. "

Quran 17:110 -
"Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."

Quran 20:8 -
"Allah! there is no god but He! To Him belong the most Beautiful Names. "

Quran 7:180 -
" The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names: for what they do, they will soon be requited. "

OK, have you noticed the sign?...

DEUTERONOMY 18:18-19 -

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

The above is about Prophet Muhammad(saaw) not Jesus(peace be upon him) because at the same time Prophet Jesus(pbuh) did not fulfill the Judas Maccabee prophecy of 1st Maccabee 4:46!

Hasan

Does the Qur’an teach that Allah made people believe that Jesus was crucified?

Sam,

I see what the problem is and I was going to post a new subject concerning "Free-Will".

I think this the appropiate subject area of my response to your question on this verse. ( Quran 4:157 )

Let us understand that every creation has "Free-Will" but are destined by Allah(swt),the Creator.

The Quran says:

Quran 10:99 -

" If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! "

The Tafsir(Interpretation of this verse):

The Biblical connection(atleast from the Old Testament):

LEVITICUS 22:21-23 -

21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

22 Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scurvy, or scabbed, ye shall not offer these unto the LORD, nor make an offering by fire of them upon the altar unto the LORD.

23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

EZRA 8:28 -

" 28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers. "

Please follow along......

The reason for the FREE-WILL offerings are for the Nation of Israel to make a decision in the future. What is this decision?

Prophet Ezra(peace be upon him) states in the book of Ezra:

EZRA 9:13-15 -

" 13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this;

14 should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

15 O LORD God of Israel, thou art righteous; for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses; for we cannot stand before thee because of this.

Simply, this is a prophecy for the destruction of the SECOND TEMPLE which happened in 70 AD. WHY? because they disobeyed this evidence of FREE-WILL. There is much more but I want to return to the Quranic verse.

Quran 4:157 is about people who made mistake with their eyes. They have FREE-WILL and the opportunity to decide on a matter. Again,

This is true because of the Talmudic errors and the writings of Josephus Flavius.

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-2.htm

The point I want to make about Josephus Flavius is that he is basing his report on hearsay and/or conjecture because he never SEEN the crucifixion himself.

Therefore, proving that the Quran is correct on the point of conjecture and also the boasting of the Temple priests.

The reason or the premise of the Quran is correct because a DEAD CORPSE could not be TOUCHED nor BURIED on FRIDAY(Preparation Day) and on the Sabbath(Saturday) because of NUMBERS Chapter 19 and the supporting evidence for this is located in the Book of the Maccabees:

2nd Maccabees 12:38-39 -

38 After the battle Judas led his men to the town of Adullam. It was the day before the Sabbath, so they purified themselves according to Jewish custom and then observed the holy day.
39 By the following day it was urgent that they gather up the bodies of the men who had been killed in battle and bury them in their family tombs.

Otherwords, they buried the dead bodies on SUNDAY and NOT FRIDAY. In comparison to the error in the Gospels which state that he was crucified on Friday and his body was taken down on FRIDAY. This is a CLEAR error by the writers of the Gospels.

Hasan

While I understand the concept of free will and pre-destination (i.e., humans have free will, but God is omniscient and therefore knew our choices before we were born), Christians can’t accept the teachings of Islam because it would require us to deny our fundamental belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and evidently Muslims won’t accept the teachings of Christianity because it seems like idolatry. Meanwhile, the first Jewish Sanhedrin in 1,600 years is preparing for a Messiah who Christians believe will be revealed as the Antichrist when he stands in the Holy Temple, which will be re-built on ground that Muslims now hold as sacred. This truly is an amazing time to be alive and it makes perfect sense why the world is heading toward a conflict of Biblical proportions.

On a personal level, I know in my heart that Jesus is the Messiah and that He has the power to forgive sins. When I accepted that as fact, the experience was too incredible to be anything other than genuine. Having grown closer to God over the years, even the thought of turning my back on Jesus is unbearable. It would be like having my heart ripped from my chest.

Sam,

Tell me where in the Talmud where it states that God will be a man on Earth and live among men?

There is NO evidence for this, however, there is plenty of evidence to show that Christianity has copied the ideas of neighbooring Pagan communities.

I have explained the position of FreeWill and Pre-destination in Islam.

The problem with the Jews is that they do not accept Prophet Jesus(pbuh) as the Messiah(as is stated in the Quran). The Messiah(the Greater Messiah) is symbolically the leader of the Jews for all times NOT Humanity. The Messiah is NOT God but a Human being.

The Temple mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel is the SECOND Temple and NOT a future Temple(read the Book of Zechariah). The Jews also do not accept the concept of an Anti-Christ eventhough he is CLEARLY mentioned in ZECHARIAH 11:17.

Hasan

Hasan,

Of course Christianity has copied pagan ideas (e.g., Christmas). So? My faith is not about a book, it’s not about holidays and it’s not about convincing other people that I’m right. One hundred years from now, it will not matter if I followed the laws set forth in Deuteronomy, it won’t matter if I celebrated Christmas as a family holiday, and this conversation will not matter. My faith is based on the knowledge that I am a sinner who is not worthy to be in the presence of God and my acceptance that Jesus is the Son of God who has the power to forgive all of my sins through His crucifixion.

You say that the Messiah is a man. Well, Jesus is a man. He is 100% human and He is 100% God. I guess when I figure out what is one mile past the edge of the universe, I’ll also understand the absolute divine and completely human nature of Jesus. Until that time, I have a peace inside that assures me that I am right.

If you want to debate about the Talmud you should talk to a Messianic Jew. I know absolutely nothing about the Talmud.