A holocaust survivor, winner of the nobel peace prize:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/HOLO/ELIEBIO.HTM

__________________
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" Churchill

Hum. Interesting links. It sounds like even at the time the Kosovo forces were careful to keep an arms length from them though.

Though here's a question. If by chance external fundamentalists take hold in Kosovo. Would you Serbs be up for taking the area back if Western support was cut?

Could you do so without atrocities beyond colateral damage?

The KLA will likely not allow fundamentalists to 'take hold'. It does not mean the fundamentalists won't prosper or the US won't get involved with them, they will in due time. And about collateral damage - the KLA is again a guerilla unit, unintended casualties comes with the territory of fighting these groups - look at Iraq. Civil war and suspicion would continue until the party is wiped out, then Kosovo would be like any other state of Serbia.

__________________
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" Churchill

If the remaining Serbs in Kosovo get attacked or terrorized by some organized groups, the answer is yes. We would go there by force. And behold: no one will stop us then, not even the KFOR.

But the odds are minimal. Serbs do not want to go to war. The price of life in the Balkans has increased dramatically in the past few years. Nobody is prepared to die without a very very strong reason now.

I don't agree with the US subjugating anyone.


The Kosovo government has existed mere days...you have no way of knowing who they do or do not support right now. You are unwilling to even give them the benefit of the doubt. You've already convicted them.



They aren't an Islamic state yet. By all indications I have seen, they intend to become a secular Islamic state like Turkey.

Either way, the alternative was worse. I will take a hostile democracy over a friendly oligarchy or dictatorship any day.



Who says it wont be? I don't get this logic you people seem to have that a nation is not really a nation unless it has a fully functional military from day one.

It is legitimate because WE SAY IT IS LEGITIMATE. That is all that is required. No military necessary. It is legitimate because the most powerful nation in the world just declared it so.



Any government with the power to say "no" is not a puppet. Period.


Not quite as deep as the Serbians apparently.


Apparently they felt Serbian oppression was worse. If I was in their position, I'd probably feel the same way.


Taiwan?


We didn't forget. We just don't care.

You're learning the same lesson Saddam learned. Ultimately we don't view oppressive regimes as legitimate. And we will turn on them in an instant.



So were the Soviets at one point. Things change.

I really do hope this hurts actually. Because it means that Serbia and the US will be less likely to become allies again in the future. And I want to see the US government turn on oppressive governments, not ally with them. The burning of the embassy was a great start.



Maybe. That'll do it every time.


If our #1 interest is spreading democracy, then we are protecting our #1 interest.



Uncivilized people don't deserve to be free...is that your position?

Though I guess it is irrelevant, since I am unwilling to take your word for it that they are uncivilized.


Cry me a river.


You are pretty much supporting every single stereotype I have had of Serbs so far.


Mostly because you had your hands full oppressing your own minorities. I am sure Hitler would sympathize.


We gave you ample opportunity. Our patience is not infinite.



Um...if we dont care about your opinion on the Kosovo Albanians, what makes you think we will care about their's?

You describe them as "animals", call them uncivilized, and then expect us to believe you will treat them as human beings if we left you alone? Yeah right.



Then why couldnt you keep them from seceding?


Yay.


Believe whatever makes you feel better. So long as we continue to get our way, I don't really care what you believe our motives are.


They already have one. It's called Iraq. They have full representation and no one is oppressing them.


Better get comfortable, it might be a while, heh heh

__________________
My Political Blog (Most recent update Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

Cool, so Serbia is not a puppet. What a comfort...

You wouldn't want to see the Chinese raging. It's gonna be very bad for you. And guess what - they'll have plenty of allies.

You contradict yourself all the time. Are you trying to convince someone that Americans really and truely "care" about Albanians? Come on, give me a break, will ya?

I never even implied that they were. In fact, thats the main reason I oppose them on this issue. Because they were not coerced. No one forced them to oppress their minorities.



Its gonna be much worse for them. And they know it. Like the Russians, they are ultimately pragmatists.

How long have we been selling weapons to the Taiwanese? We trade with them. We have a law in the US that specifically declares our intention to defend them if China invades. We came very close to openly recognizing them as a non-NATO ally of the US in Bush's first term!

And what has China done about it? Nothing. They whine and complain about us violating their sovereignty, and make empty threats, and then do nothing. They know full well they have no hope of defeating us in a military conflict, conventional or otherwise. And they need us to fuel their economic growth.

Thats what pragmatism gets you. It makes you predictable and allows people to walk all over you.



We care about democracy in general, and the Albanians by proxy.



Hey, I am just trying to explain to you our motivations. If you want to pretend I am a liar, feel free. It's all the same to me so long as we continue to get our way.

__________________
My Political Blog (Most recent update Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

It fits the topic of the other thread more but I believe we also have a policy of roughly recognizing that Taiwan is to be part of China. I don't think Bush like it and it preceeded him but I'm pretty suer it's there. Not that we wouldn't defend them if attacked. The idea is you have to play nice.


And I think I asked it in another thread, but it's hard to keep track.

Why are you guys protesting now? It sounds like the resolution to make Kosovo independent came out a year ago. Now I suppose at that time you could figure a Russian veto would end it.

However we've been seeing stories (not front page but stories) about how Kosovo will be breaking off, declaring independence, and being recognized by a number of western powers for over a month now. Surely you knew as well.

It seems to me that it would have made a lot more sense to protest then.

We pay lip service to the idea of "One China". All it does it allow commie china to save face. For all intents and purposes, Taiwan is a separate nation. It has a completely independent economy, political system, and military.



When China gets uppity and starts making threats and holding military exercises, it is not so easy to play nice. So we have to gently remind them that resistance is futile. And they always calm down eventually.

__________________
My Political Blog (Most recent update Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

Its good when 90% of drug goes across Kosovo from Afghanistan,independence of Kosovo means that now drug tradeship is legal now with de facto democracy,which never will work in society of drug dillers and muslims,how can be region democratic if president of Kosovo ex terrorist which killed native serbs in Kosovo by his Ak-47,better that Bush did not shoot native indians,but Tachi done it.