I agree. Their sacrifices mean the removal of a threat to their families, and the families of other Americans. Thousands of soldiers sacrifice their lives to prevent threats to millions of civilians.


Russia will do nothing that threaten it's own existence. Confronting us militarily will threaten it's own existence.

The reality is that the best they can possibly hope for in a conflict with us is mutual destruction. Russia is not suicidal. They will never attack us unless we attack them.



It is in America's interest to support every new democracy. Without-a-doubt. How many recent exceptions can you think of?



Not recently. Certainly not since the neocons gained power.



I prefer to think of it as a modern analog to Manifest Destiny. We'll expand democracy to the Pacific coast....from both directions.

The only way anyone will be able to stop us is by military confrontation. And right now there is no nation capable of doing that without being destroyed themselves in the process. The net result is that we will be able to continue doing what we are doing, and our enemies cant do a (*)(*)(*)(*) thing to stop us.

Spreading democracy is in our own best interest in the long term. Even from a completely selfish perspective.



I don't propose throwing Russia aside. I propose ignoring them. Its worked with China hasn't it? They bіtch and moan about us selling weapons to Taiwan. About doing military exercises in the straight. But what do they actually DO about it? They bіtch and moan again and make more empty threats. The lesson? We can support a democracy against China's will and get away with it. Russia will be exactly the same.

And it isn't like we desperately rely on Russia for trade either. There is very little they can do economically that will amount to more than an irritation to us.



Been there. Done that. We've actually faced a much more powerful opponent before and won. Russia is small potatos compared to the Soviets.



China is (predictably) siding with Russia. This issue hits a bit close to home for them since they have almost the exact same situation going on with Taiwan.

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Sadistic-Savior - It seems you are thinking of this in terms of the near-future repercussions. Everything you say is most likely true, Russia is not a player as the USSR was and there will be nothing more than bluff at this point. The problem I have been trying to address is the alienation of the east. If major powers are pushed away from relations from the west, they coerce and survive using each other's infrastructure and markets. This is not what America needs, she needs open negotiations with as many nations as possible, especially powerful ones like Russia (yes - Russia is powerful), so when ties are broken there are other consequences than 'that country' is 'irritating'.

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"We've been blowin up, we're the issue, we're ammunition" Switchfoot

That alienation will erode over time IMO. The nature of media being what it is (especially given the fact that it's influence is only increasing), it is no longer possible for their governments to keep their populations entirely isolated from us. This is especially true of Russia, but is even true for China (despite the best attempts from the PRC to stop it).

The Soviet solution simply is not possible for Russia given this variable. Their government might desire to alienate it's population, but it is not realistically possible.

Thats why I don't take their threats seriously. They're a democracy now. They don't have a closed system like the Soviets did. Even if we assume their leaders want to poison the population against us, it wont be realistically possible. And I believe they will come around to our way of thinking eventually. Most of the resentment we see from people like Grond is residual humiliation at their loss of status as a superpower. Future generations will not be tainted by that.



I do not believe they will be able to provide each other what they need. For example, China needs a customer for it's Industry to fuel it's economy. Russia simply does not have a market of consumers nearly as large as our's. Thats also why China continues to trade with us despite fuming over our interference with Taiwan. They don't really have a choice if they want to maintain their growth.

And I am not disputing that Russia is dangerous. Just that they are not dangerous to US. They have a great deal to lose in a confrontation with us (military or otherwise) and they know it. Being pragmatists, they will fall in line. Thats the weakness of pragmatism...it makes you predictable.


I am willing to risk those consequences if the alternative is crapping on a new democracy. Defense always supersedes economy. Always.

Kosovo Albanians are TERRORISTS !

THE TRUTH ABOUT SERBS IN KOSOVO

A single video isnt enough to sterotype a nation of people. Sorry.

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It is not about economics or military. Economics will not be a factor when a market exists to rival the US on the other side of the globe. Military will not matter when a force exists to rival the US on the other side of the globe. It's about relations - not only hard-ball, but @$$ kissing. And that is entirely un-American and unrealistic because we police the world, right? You do know the balance of power will change over time, correct?

The problem with democracy is it is the means by which and end will result in itself. Democracy will over-expand its realm and right in military, materials, and relations all in the name of democracy's influence, until it is stretched too thin to support its own people. (I should say a Republic more than Democracy - which describes the US better)

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"We've been blowin up, we're the issue, we're ammunition" Switchfoot

If all you ever do is worry about adn try to avoid possible negative ramifications of actions..you will never do anything.
But things will be done to you.

On the contrary, by supporting Kosovo so readily we send a message to Russia that we want no cooperation whatsoever. Worrying is not a problem of mine, 'nice guys finish last', if you believe the better course of action is to support Kosovo, good for you. But not in a hundred years.

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Russia isn't the only country in Europe...or the world for that matter...

Even assuming they maintain their current growth rate, it will be a very long time before China's GDP catches up to ours.



Yeah, pretty much.


I don't share your assumption that the change will be in their favor. You are basing your predictions on the assumption that they themselves will not change in the process of becoming wealthy. That is unrealistic.

Leftist Extremists don't like economic prosperity for the masses for a very good reason.


How do you know that? Its never actually happened. What do you base that assumption on?



At which point it would fragment into smaller democracies, and the process would start over.

But I think you are underestimating the capacity of technology to support such a democracy. This is not Rome. As we expand our capacity to support our democracy will also expand.



Use whatever word you wish. We fit both definitions. People often assume, wrongly, that the words are mutually exclusive.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Republic


If the alternative is to compromise on democracy, then that message is acceptable.

We want Russia's friendship, but not at any cost. There are limits to what we will do to earn their cooperation.

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