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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:09 AM
adult_swim adult_swim is offline
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Who has the best "Air to Air combat" odds?

Glad I could help...
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:34 AM
Fascist Canuck Fascist Canuck is offline
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Originally Posted by lunecat View Post
Remember there is the EF2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon


comparable to the F-22

NATO has 600+ based in Western Europe

Russia still flies the Tu-95 and E2000 + Tornado fighters now interecpt them daily - now that Russia can once again afford the aviation fuel costs - they play their cold war games again.

Thank goodness that we kept investing in new technologies after the Soviet collapse - It has meant we are now 10 to 20 years ahead in technological terms

Russia will attempt to steal the technologies using spies.


These are just one reason why Russia will just grumble about Kosovo and nothing more - we must stay ahead though
*ROTFLMAO @ the Russians being 10 to 20 years behind* (*)(*)(*)(*), but that American propaganda machine works wonders!

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are your equal, if not more advanced. The only thing that keeps them from producing very advanced equipment is a lack of money.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by americanfreedom View Post

Yeah Russians who's population is dying for bread, most of their women are mail brides in USA. And the ones that are here in USA are under welfare. Superpower is the country that has the economy and weapons.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Fascist Canuck View Post
*ROTFLMAO @ the Russians being 10 to 20 years behind* (*)(*)(*)(*), but that American propaganda machine works wonders!

I hate to break it to you, but the Russians are your equal, if not more advanced. The only thing that keeps them from producing very advanced equipment is a lack of money.

Thank you for proving my point, that they are not superpower...
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:56 AM
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Ahem...

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Russian Aces over Korea
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 Fagot pilots
by Diego Zampini

June 24 1951. One of many duels between Sabres and MiGs was raging at 10,000 meters (about 30,000 feet) over the southern shore of the Yalu River over North Korea, and the experienced CO of the American 336th FIS, Lt. Col. Bruce Hinton, was getting closer to an unaware MiG, ready for his 3rd MiG kill. (Hinton had shot down the very first MiG credited to a Sabre pilot in the Korean War six months earlier.) Suddenly he saw a Sabre crossing in front of him followed by a MiG-15, which was beating up the F-86 with its terrible 37 mm cannon.

Hinton even saw big pieces of debris coming off of the stricken Sabre. Shell strikes were setting the F-86 on fire.

Without hesitation, Hinton flew to help his comrade. However, he could not surprise the MiG-15 pilot, who saw him coming, forgot the beaten F-86 and performed a head-on pass against Hinton, like a joust of medieval knights. The MiG passed so close to Hinton's Sabre, that he wondered how they avoided a mid-air collision (the MiG driver missed Hinton's aircraft by less than 15 yards). In the ensuing fight, Hinton needed all his expertise to get a little advantage. Hinton's wingman confessed later that he couldn't follow the maneuvers of his leader, blacking out several times despite his g-suit. But after one circle and two low yo-yos, Hinton was able to shoot two short bursts, hitting the MiG. Smart enough so to know when he should quit, the skillful MiG-15 pilot disengaged and crossed the Yalu before Hinton could catch him.

Hinton escorted the badly hit F-86 (BuNo 49-1281) back to Suwon, where it belly landed and was written off. Only then did Lt. Col. Hinton realize that he had saved the life of his dear friend Glenn T. Eagleston, CO of the 4th Fighter Wing. Eagleston was a WW2 ace with 18.5 kills against German planes, and he had scored two MiG kills in the previous six months. So, the adversary able to beat up such an excellent pilot had to be a first class opponent. Hinton referred to that MiG-15 pilot with the following words:

"This MiG driver had been good, VERY GOOD. He had been waiting above the engagements between the MiGs and the F-86s. It was a well-known tactic that was commonly used by a single MiG pilot, that we referred to as CASEY JONES*. Ol' Casey was an exceptional pilot, and definitely not an Oriental. His normal procedure was to hit fast from a high perch, diving down on any F-86 that was isolated from the on-going air battle, quite similar to a tactic used by von Richthofen in The Great War."

(*) For non-American readers: Casey Jones was a legendary locomotive engineer in the US railroads' golden age. He used to sit atop the locomotive cabin to see any problem on the rails in enough time. The US pilots compared this attitude with the one of their best adversaries (loitering above the combat waiting for an unaware prey) and so they gave to these MiG-15 pilots the nickname "Casey Jones".

Do we know today who "Casey Jones" was? YES, and Hinton's suspicions about his identity were right; he was not an Oriental. He was Nikolai Vasilievich Sutyagin, a member of the 17th IAP (Fighter Regiment) of the 303rd IAD (Fighter Division) of the Voyenno Vozdushnye Sily, the Soviet Air Force. Actually Eagleston became the 4th aerial victory of Kapetan Nikolai Sutyagin, who had shot down a Sabre on June 19 1951 and two more on June 22. The score of that outstanding Russian pilot kept rising, to 21 kills, which made him the Top Ace of the Korean War. (In comparison, the great U.S. aces of the Korean War knocked down "only" fifteen MiGs).

During the time that the "Honchos" (the nickname given by the Sabre pilots to excellent MiG pilots) were in Korea, between April 1951 and January 1952, they shot down or damaged beyond repair 142 UN aircraft against 68 losses, an overall 2:1 kill ratio. Their most successful month was October 1951, when the Soviet MiG-15s bagged 7 F-86s, 6 F-84Es, 2 RF-80As and one F-80C, one Meteor and 10 B-29As -24 victories- and suffered only 8 MiGs lost. During that period over 30 Soviet MiG-15 pilots became aces, among them the already mentioned Nikolai Sutyagin (21 kills); and also Yevgeni Pepelyayev (19), Lev Shchukin (17), Sergei Kramarenko (13), Mikhail Ponomaryev (11), Dmitri Samoylov (10), etc.





If we add to such factors the usual overclaiming -in good faith, but overclaiming in the end- of any war, then we can understand why the Soviet 64th IAK claimed the unbelievable figure of 1,106 UN aircraft destroyed in the Korean War. (532 of them in the "Honcho Period," when only 142 Allied aircraft were actually downed by the Soviet MiG-15 pilots). So, many of those scores must be seen with a lot of skepticism, e.g: Mikhail Ponomaryev was credited with 11 kills, but when we analyze the dates of his claims, only 2 matched with admitted US losses! And he is not the only one.

The overall 2:1 kill ratio of the "Honcho Period" clearly shows that the Russian Aces at that time gained at least a slight edge against their skillful American counterparts.

So, why did the Russian pilots in Korea scored so high? It is an interesting question, and it has more than a possible answer. One of them is because -at least in 1951- they were using better tactics:

Experience was also a key factor, and the Russian pilots had a great deal of it. Most of the regimental and squadron commanders in 1951 were WW2 aces, e.g. Georgii Lobov (19 victories), Aleksandr Vasko (15 kills), Aleksandr Kumanichkin (30), Grigorii Ohay (6). So, the Russian pilots were as experienced as the best American WW2 Aces of the 4th and 51st Wings, like Francis Gabreski, Glenn Eagleston, Walker Mahurin, Robert Thyng, George Davis and many others.


Did differences in equipment explain the disparity? Probably not. Esentially the technological contest between the Soviet MiG-15 and the American F-86 Sabre was an even match. The MiG-15 Fagot was better than the F-86 in many aspects (superior climb rate, faster acceleration, more powerful weaponry) but the F-86 Sabre compensated that with more stable diving, a better gunsight, and a g-suit for their pilots, allowing them to resist the tremendous g-forces involved in dogfights. So, the edge were the men in the cockpits, and in the "Honcho Period" the Soviets had such slight edge. Quoting Chuck Yeager: "It's the man, not the machine".

In April-May 1951 there were only two regiments of MiG-15s in Manchuria, with a total of only 72 MiGs (despite the fantastic US reports which talked about 200 MiGs in China at that time). These six dozen MiGs faced about 700 UN aircraft, odds of 10 to 1.

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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:59 AM
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^^^Man what century are you living, the cold war is done, so is USSR. We are talking now, but even then who migrated to Russia, no one cause they were sucking just like all the communist regimes.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:59 AM
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Yeah Russians who's population is dying for bread, most of their women are mail brides in USA. And the ones that are here in USA are under welfare. Superpower is the country that has the economy and weapons.
Christ-on-a-stick, but they have been an open economy for only 15 years, whereas the USA has been one for over 200 years! Give the Russians time! They have hundreds upon hundreds of times the natural resources you do. Under communism, inefficiency ruined any chance of exploiting such resources. Once the Russians get their economy in order, take care to watch them, as they arise once again to superpower status. In fact, I feel these Russians will prove more dangerous than the previous Soviet version.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Fascist Canuck View Post
Christ-on-a-stick, but they have been an open economy for only 15 years, whereas the USA has been one for over 200 years! Give the Russians time! They have hundreds upon hundreds of times the natural resources you do. Under communism, inefficiency ruined any chance of exploiting such resources. Once the Russians get their economy in order, take care to watch them, as they arise once again to superpower status. In fact, I feel these Russians will prove more dangerous than the previous Soviet version.
Well than they can't claim that they are superpower with an economy like that. They will never progress cause they have too much corruption which does not let the country progress to much. No matter how much Americans have different issues in the political views they seem always to come together, something that I have not seen in Russia.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Fascist Canuck View Post

*ROTFLMAO @ the Russians being 10 to 20 years behind*
...

Laugh all you like my friend - maybe you feel your bravodo replaces the truth


Its doesn't ....
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:21 AM
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^^^Man what century are you living, the cold war is done, so is USSR. We are talking now, but even then who migrated to Russia, no one cause they were sucking just like all the communist regimes.
Ah yes, I had read about the famous Soviet MiG pilot, who flew an MiG-25 Foxbat into Japan, the very plane that was causing the USA to (*)(*)(*)(*) its collective pants. Apparently, the CIA took it apart, and were stunned that it was not what they dreamed. Read this excerpt from a Soviet defector who still today laughs about that episode:

Quote:
When a MIG-25 landed in Japan, the Western experts who examined it marvelled at the simplicity of its design. Naturally, for propaganda purposes, the fighting qualities of this excellent aircraft were disparaged. One not particularly perceptive specialist even commented, 'We had thought it was made of titanium but it turns out to be nothing but steel.' It is, in fact, impossible to reach the speeds of which the MIG-25 is capable using titanium: yet the Soviet designers had managed to build this, the fastest combat aircraft in the world, from ordinary steel.

This is a most significant fact. It means that this remarkable aircraft can be built without especially complicated machine tools or the help of highly skilled specialists, and that its mass-production in wartime would be unaffected by shortages of important materials. Furthermore, this aircraft is exceedingly cheap to produce and could therefore be built in very great numbers if this were necessary. This is its most important characteristic; the fact that for two decades it has been the fastest interceptor aircraft in the world, with the highest rate of climb, is of secondary significance.
and, note this:

Quote:
I once saw a film comparing a Soviet and an American tank. A driver was given both models to drive and he was then asked -- 'Which is the better?' The American one, of course,' said the driver. 'It has automatic transmission, whereas in the Soviet tank you have to change gear, which is not easy in a heavy machine.' He was quite right -- if you see war as a pleasant outing. But Soviet designers realise that any future war will be anything but this. They consider, quite correctly, that, if there are mass bombing attacks, if whole industrial areas are destroyed, if long-distance communications break down, mass production of tanks with automatic transmission would be out of the question. Equally it would be impossible to repair or service tanks of this sort which had been produced before the war. Accordingly, there can be only one choice -- the ordinary, non-automatic transmission. This may be hard on the tank driver -- he will get tired. But it will be easier for industry and for the whole country, which will continue to produce tanks by the ten thousand on machines which have been set up virtually in the open air.

The simplicity of Soviet weapons surprises everyone. But each type of equipment which is produced is turned out in two variants -- the normal one and the 'monkey-model'.

The 'monkey-model' is a weapon which has been simplified in every conceivable way and which is intended for production in wartime only.

For instance, the T-62 tank is one of the simplest fighting vehicles in the world. But as it was being designed, a still simpler version was also being developed, for wartime use. The 'monkey-model' of the T-62 does not have a stabilised gun, carries simplified radio and optical equipment, the night-vision equipment uses an infra-red light source to illuminate targets (a method which is twenty years old), the gun is raised and turned manually, steel rather than wolfram or uranium is used for the armour-plating piercing caps of its shells.

Soviet generals consider, justifiably, that it is better to have tanks like these in a war than none at all. It is intended that the 'monkey-model' approach will be used not only for building tanks, but for all other sorts of equipment -- rockets, guns, aircraft, radio sets, etc. In peacetime these variants are turned out in large quantities, but they are only issued to countries friendly to the Soviet Union. I have seen two variants of the BMP-1 infantry combat vehicle -- one which is issued to the Soviet army and another which is intended for the Soviet Union's Arab friends. I counted sixty-three simplifications which made the second 'monkey-model' different from the original version. Among the most important of these were: The 73mm gun has no loading or round selection equipment. Whereas in the Soviet version the gunnerjust presses the appropriate buttons and the round which he requires slides into the barrel, in the simplified model all of this has to be done by hand, and furthermore, the gun is not stabilised. The turret is rotated and the gun is raised mechanically. In the Soviet version this is done electrically -- the mechanical system is there only as a back-up. The 'export' version is armed with the Malyutka rocket, the Soviet one with the 'Malyutka-M', which differs from the other model in having an automatic target guidance system. The 'monkey-model' is without the lead internal lining on the walls, which protects the crew against penetrating radiation and against flying fragments of armour in the event of a direct hit. The optical system is greatly simplified, as is the communications equipment, there is no automatic radiation or gas detector, there is neither an automatic hermetic sealing system nor an air filtration system, for use in conditions of very heavy contamination, no automatic topographical fixation system is fitted and many other systems are missing.

When one of these 'monkey-models' fell into the hands of Western specialists, they naturally gained a completely false impression of the true combat capabilities of the BMP-1 and of Soviet tanks. For what they were looking at was no more than a casing, or a container, like an empty money box which is of no value without its contents.

The Soviet Union is currently making deliveries abroad of T-72 tanks, MIG-23 fighters and TU-22 bombers. But these are different from the models with which the Soviet Army has armed itself. When one of a man's pockets contains banknotes and the other simply holds pieces of paper, it is quite impossible to tell which is which from the outside.

The current Soviet policy concerning equipment is a wise one -- to amass first-class but very simple equipment in quantities sufficient for the first few weeks of a war. If the war continues, equipment will be produced on an enormous scale, but in variants which have been simplified to the greatest possible extent. Experience of producing both standard and 'monkey' models is being gained in peacetime; the simpler variants are being sold to the 'brothers' and 'friends' of the USSR as the very latest equipment available.


For example, as early as 1955, the USSR began production of the 'Rapira' smoothbore anti-tank gun, which has an astonishingly high muzzle velocity. In its introduction of this weapon it led the West by more than a quarter of a century. In the same year a start was also made with production of the APNB-70 infra-red night sight, for the 'Rapira'. Sights of this type were not issued to Western armies for another ten years.

The, Soviet Army takes exceptionally strict measures to safeguard the secrets of its anti-tank weapons. Many of these are completely unknown in the West. The Chief Directorate of Strategic Camouflage insists that the only anti-tank weapons which may be displayed are those which can be exported -- in other words the least effective ones. The systems which may not be exported are never demonstrated but remain unknown from their birth, throughout their secret life and often, even, after their death. We will say something about these later.

Yet another approach to the problem was devised. The lack of accuracy of Soviet mortars is more than made up for by the explosive power of their bombs. To Soviet commanders, the best mortar is a large one -- the bigger it is the better. At present the largest American mortar is their 106.7mm, while the smallest Soviet one is 120mm. The biggest American mortar tar bomb weighs 12.3 kilogrammes, the smallest Soviet one 16 kilogrammes. But besides this small mortar, the Soviet Army has a 160mm version, which fires a 40 kilogramme bomb and a 240mm version which fires a 100 kilogramme bomb.

A Soviet motor torpedo boat (under Egyptian colours) was the first in history to use rockets to sink an enemy ship. The Soviet Union was the first to use the BM-13 salvo-firing rocket launcher. The Soviet Union was the first, many years ago, to realise the value of smoothbore guns, with their astonishingly high muzzle velocity, and it was the first to mass-produce automatic mortars and many other excellent types of weapon.
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