Political Forum  

Go Back   Political Forum > Politics by Region > Russia & Eastern Europe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:54 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Quote:
Well ,yes. If you look at it just that way, in terms of economy. But if selling NIS was the only way to gain strong Russian support for Kosovo (and a possible gas pipeline in the future), then you should look at it as a political deal (which it is).
What, you mean Russia isn't going to support you out of the goodness of their hearts?

So much for Slavic brotherhood eh?

Russia cares about Russia. Kosovo was a useful political tool for them and nothing more. They are not interested in your dispute over Kosovo beyond what it gains them personally. If you want their support you will have to do what the rest of us do...buy it.



Quote:
But then again, selling NIS at 5 times lower price than the market value is not good for the economy.
Heh heh, ya think?

For what its worth, I think you guys could do it on your own, and that it would be worth it in the long run. But ultimately its up to you. Just like it was up to Venezuela and the Iraqis.

And it isn't like you would not be getting something out of it anyway. How badly do you want to stay on Russia's good side?


Quote:
At least we've secured an ally. Without the deal, we wouldn't have a single ally in the world.
Then you better bend over and grab your ankles for Mother Russia.
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page

Last edited by Sadistic-Savior; 04-04-2008 at 12:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:56 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Has anyone seen Grond? I just saw him walk by whistling to himself...
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:27 PM
sunnyside sunnyside is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,066
sunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to beholdsunnyside is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 6,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueAlbo2006 View Post
But you still talk about exterminating Albanians. You're behavior is a typical Miosevic resemblance. It's funny, you quickly attempt to throw the blame on some others.
Well Milsovic did a bad job of oppressing and exterminating Albanians. Especially after he had the example of the Israelis and just ignored it. Really he played right into the Albanians hand.

KLA waits until Yugoslavia is on thin ice after the Bosnia stuff (having been specifically told not to try anything like that in Kosovo).
KLA does some nasty stuff
Milsovic does the political equivalent of jumping up and down on the thin ice.
Yugoslavia goes in the drink.

Even the Albanian haters are probably upset with him about that.

So it sounds like it's known in Serbia that you're attempting to buy Russia's friendship for a few billion dollars. Personally I have my doubts that will work out so well for you. Your best bet at getting Kosovo back is to have a great economy. Because friendly as they are I don't think Russia will help you invade. So the economic lose will only hurt your chances of reclaiming Kosovo.

Where it would help you is if you were worried about losing another province. Are you?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:40 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Quote:
Your best bet at getting Kosovo back is to have a great economy.
Ditto. It may take a generation, but if Serbia changes for the better, the kosovars may come around on their own.
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:42 PM
Novi Sad Novi Sad is offline
Observer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
yugoslavia
Novi Sad is on a distinguished road
Credits: 174
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath View Post
Well ,yes. If you look at it just that way, in terms of economy. But if selling NIS was the only way to gain strong Russian support for Kosovo (and a possible gas pipeline in the future), then you should look at it as a political deal (which it is).

I believe the good sides of the deal will show up in the future.

But then again, selling NIS at 5 times lower price than the market value is not good for the economy.

At least we've secured an ally. Without the deal, we wouldn't have a single ally in the world. And that can't be good.

Now you see what that sick arse Milosevic has done to us.
I must strongly disagree with this opinion for numerous reasons.
Concerning gas pipeline: Russia has gas of LOWEST quality, second, we have already been totally addicted of their gas (large percent of gas in Serbia is from Russia, however - a curiosity - province of Vojvodina exploits enough gas to satisfy it's own needs).

I am a pragmatic person, and I don't believe in Russian "friendship" but I believe in Russian interests. I think that their maximum of denial will be reached when this agreement is arranged and when we don't have what else to sell.

For instant, lets see China: they're neutral or somewhat approving Serbia's positions since Serbian government agreed (this is not so well known information) to discharge certification and standards check of Chinese products at customs. This is a reliable fact, my source is a Serbian international trader who was VERY surprised with new trading regime.
However, this means a flood of cheap, low quality equipment from China.

Anyway, I think that way of thinking as a populist politician, and not as a statesman is characteristic for current Serbian scene.
There is a slight difference between statesman and politician... such as between a fisherman and man standing on shore, acting as idiot.

Quote:
But you still talk about exterminating Albanians. You're behavior is a typical Miosevic resemblance. It's funny, you quickly attempt to throw the blame on some others.
Are you certain?
What about parties in parliament that support concept of decentralization, euro-regionalism etc.? They are minorities in opposition, however they're opposition and it is very wrong to generalize this way.
Second, that party (Serbian Radical Party) got 44% on second round in presidential elections. Real strength of a single party is determined in first round, when they got 39%, with (roughly) 1,6 mil votes. And that is the single strongest party in Serbia.


Just to remind, that's how much Albanians with the right of vote Kosovo has now, according to statistics.

If Albanians in Serbia are powerful as a single most powerful party, and they don't use that right, what do they exactly want? To be honest, in case that Albanians from Kosovo wish to stay within Serbia, that means practically that in every presidential elections Kosovo Albanians will have 100% guaranteed candidate in 2nd round. That also means that they can make one of 3 single strongest parties in Serbia, beside Democratic Party and Serbian Radical Party!

You still haven't responded on my comments about what do you get except ethnically clean state - and I won't argue about how it's made - that you couldn't legally have in Serbia if you would use your legal rights?!

Practically, Serbian government during negotiations offered almost total independence and only to have our flag on your borders and institutions and you have denied even that? What's that for?

I think that there is just one possible explanation: pure national hate...

Before you say that I'm maybe a member of conservative, hard right wing or something I will just mention that I support liberal democratic party.
If you don't know who they are, I guess that your ultimate reliable source (wikipedia) will do the job
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:47 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Quote:
If you don't know who they are, I guess that your ultimate reliable source (wikipedia) will do the job
Ok.

Quote:
Two political parties in Serbia have the name Liberal Democratic Party in English:

* Liberal Democratic Party (Liberalno demokratska stranka) founded in 1989
* Liberal Democratic Party (Liberalno demokratska partija) founded in 2005


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal..._Party_(Serbia)
Which one did you vote for?
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Here is the most recent one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal...Serbia_2005%29


Quote:
Jovanovic has repeatedly offered Tadic a hand in forming a new government after the May 11 elections, providing the DS change its policy on Kosovo, in recognising Kosovo as an independent state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal...Serbia_2005%29
Wow...that is interesting. So they want to recognize Kosovo?

Check this out (this is the entry on their leader, whose name I cant pronounce):


Quote:
Independence of Kosovo

Being one of the few Serbian politicians who openly recognize the illegal and unilateral declaration of Kosovo independence, Cedomir continues to be the target of much criticism among the Serbian people for being a “national traitor”.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ce...ence_of_Kosovo
Wow, do you think the author is biased? heh heh

This should serve as a reminder that while wikipedia is generally correct, it is NOT infallible.
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page

Last edited by Sadistic-Savior; 04-04-2008 at 01:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:56 PM
AmusedToDeath's Avatar
AmusedToDeath AmusedToDeath is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mighty Serbia
Posts: 1,632
serbia
AmusedToDeath is a jewel in the roughAmusedToDeath is a jewel in the roughAmusedToDeath is a jewel in the roughAmusedToDeath is a jewel in the rough
Credits: 7,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novi Sad View Post
I must strongly disagree with this opinion for numerous reasons.
Concerning gas pipeline: Russia has gas of LOWEST quality, second, we have already been totally addicted of their gas (large percent of gas in Serbia is from Russia, however - a curiosity - province of Vojvodina exploits enough gas to satisfy it's own needs).

I am a pragmatic person, and I don't believe in Russian "friendship" but I believe in Russian interests. I think that their maximum of denial will be reached when this agreement is arranged and when we don't have what else to sell.

For instant, lets see China: they're neutral or somewhat approving Serbia's positions since Serbian government agreed (this is not so well known information) to discharge certification and standards check of Chinese products at customs. This is a reliable fact, my source is a Serbian international trader who was VERY surprised with new trading regime.
However, this means a flood of cheap, low quality equipment from China.

Anyway, I think that way of thinking as a populist politician, and not as a statesman is characteristic for current Serbian scene.
There is a slight difference between statesman and politician... such as between a fisherman and man standing on shore, acting as idiot.



Are you certain?
What about parties in parliament that support concept of decentralization, euro-regionalism etc.? They are minorities in opposition, however they're opposition and it is very wrong to generalize this way.
Second, that party (Serbian Radical Party) got 44% on second round in presidential elections. Real strength of a single party is determined in first round, when they got 39%, with (roughly) 1,6 mil votes. And that is the single strongest party in Serbia.


Just to remind, that's how much Albanians with the right of vote Kosovo has now, according to statistics.

If Albanians in Serbia are powerful as a single most powerful party, and they don't use that right, what do they exactly want? To be honest, in case that Albanians from Kosovo wish to stay within Serbia, that means practically that in every presidential elections Kosovo Albanians will have 100% guaranteed candidate in 2nd round. That also means that they can make one of 3 single strongest parties in Serbia, beside Democratic Party and Serbian Radical Party!

You still haven't responded on my comments about what do you get except ethnically clean state - and I won't argue about how it's made - that you couldn't legally have in Serbia if you would use your legal rights?!

Practically, Serbian government during negotiations offered almost total independence and only to have our flag on your borders and institutions and you have denied even that? What's that for?

I think that there is just one possible explanation: pure national hate...

Before you say that I'm maybe a member of conservative, hard right wing or something I will just mention that I support liberal democratic party.
If you don't know who they are, I guess that your ultimate reliable source (wikipedia) will do the job
Well, you didn't have to say you support LDP, I could smell it

See, LDP is the only party that is PRO Kosovo independence. I have some friends in very high positions within Jovanovic's coalition (one of the vice-presidents of Demo-christian party) and he told me that some Albanian structures gave a lot of money to finance Cedomir Jovanovic's stance considering Kosovo.
Since I am a supporter of the Democratic party, and since we will probably make a coalition after the May elections, I have to notice that LDP will have to change its policy considering Kosovo, or at least be silent.

LDP represents the 5% (roughly) of Serbian population that feels fine about cutting off our territory. The other 95% is strongly opposed.

Considering the GAZPROM deal, I'm happy with it, no matter the money we lost. At least we have ONE ally, and will get the chance to play between the East and the West once more. That is the type of policy that proved to be useful for our country in the past. And the East is becoming more powerful every day. I am pro-western orientated, I want to see Serbia within EU, but having Russia as a joker can't be bad for us.
__________________
Albanians are Islamo-fascists supported by Bin Laden and trained in Al-Qaeda terrorist camps.
Albanians were (chronologically): Turkish horse breeders, Hitler's little pawns, Stalin's servants and today they are Uncle Sam's "allies".
Albanians from Kosovo ethnically cleansed more than 250,000 non-Albanians: Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and others; desecrated more than 150 Christian churches and monasteries and killed thousands in cold blood.

Last edited by AmusedToDeath; 04-04-2008 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 02:01 PM
Novi Sad Novi Sad is offline
Observer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19
yugoslavia
Novi Sad is on a distinguished road
Credits: 174
Default

Quote:
Wow, do you think the author is biased? heh heh

This should serve as a reminder that while wikipedia is generally correct, it is NOT infallible.
Yes, that's the one.
In Serbian language, there is a difference between term of "party" - there are two terms, to be more precise "stranka" and "partija".

In this wiki case on English there is a problem because I think there is no other term for political party than party.
The one made in 1989. is made by Serbian conservative royalists, and the second one is made by Serbian republicans which strongly support concept of Serbian citizenship, not national state.

This in wiki is also true: this oppositional leader (he is within a parliamentary party) somewhat supports Kosovo's independence. People for the most time mark him as someone who is suspicious for his source of money, and there are claims that he is maybe financed by Albanians, but I STRONGLY doubt that.

I am also sure that there are parties on Kosovo that are suggesting that it would be wise to stay with Serbia, no?
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 02:09 PM
Sadistic-Savior's Avatar
Sadistic-Savior Sadistic-Savior is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 13,521
usa us colorado
Sadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to allSadistic-Savior is a name known to all
Credits: 80,488
Default

Quote:
I am also sure that there are parties on Kosovo that are suggesting that it would be wise to stay with Serbia, no?
I would be surprised if there was not at least one party that favored reunification. Even Taiwan has parties that favor reunification with China under the dominion of the PRC.

But I dont think they are close to a majority in either case.
__________________
My Political Blog (Last post Feb 14) - My MySpace Page
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Google Yahoo Furl Reddit

Thread Tools
Display Modes

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Italy probe unearths huge Iraq arms deal" Metrophobe Current Events 1 08-12-2007 11:54 AM
The Reason Dems went for "the deal" JP5 Current Events 5 05-24-2005 07:43 PM
"Anti-Russian sentiment runs very strong in Finland" SporkLord Current Events 11 10-13-2004 06:34 AM
Russian Jet Sent "Hijack" Alert PoliticalForum Current Events 25 08-28-2004 05:32 PM
A Deal Reached on "Some" Judges JP5 Current Events 8 05-20-2004 12:34 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0 Release Candidate 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4