Albanians cause violence during elections in Macedonia - Page 3

Kiwi · #21 (**permalink**) 06-06-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Radicals or patriots. They love their country just like people of any other country love theirs. Any country will use their military to protect their land. That is why that army is there. Albanians would never be able to (temporary) take Kosovo if US was not backing them.
One thing that has to be remembered though is that these great powers like Russia, China and US have their bigger goals that they want to achieve and Kosovo is just part of the puzzle. Their directions can change just as easy if something else of more value comes along the way.

I believe you missed my point. I meant that when radicals gain political power in Serbia, they have a military at their disposal. Radicals + military = Milosevic and ethnic cleansing. When radicals gain political power in Albania, they don't have a military at their disposal. So radicals in Albania, whether in positions of political power or not, rely on terrorism or guerrilla fighting to achieve their nationalist goals. I believe that if Serbia had no military, there would be terrorist acts against Albanians as well as against Serbians

Quote:

You can't convince me that people of US have more love for Albanians then for Macedonians or Serbians. Most people, and I am talking about at least 85 % Americans, don't even know where Serbia or Albania is. You can't convince me that taking somebody's land, in this day and age, is moral, legal, or just. You can't convince me that since Albanians are majority in kosovo that is the sole reason for getting their independence simply because you would have to convince me that Chechenya, Tibet, Ireland or most recently Republic of Srpska should also get their independence as well.

Based on the little I know about situations in those areas: Chechnya should have independence; Tibet is already independent? It should be anyhow; Ireland should have independence if the majority of the population so wishes. And the Republic of Srpska I know next to nothing about, other than that it is populated mainly by Serbians in a predominantly Bosniak Muslim country.

I'm not trying to convince you that the U.S. love Albanians more than other ethnic groups in the Balkans. Chances are, American support of ethnic Albanians is due to the actions of Milosevic, which were the first major Kosovo conflicts to come to the wider attention of the American public.

AmusedToDeath · #22 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I believe you missed my point. I meant that when radicals gain political power in Serbia, they have a military at their disposal. Radicals + military = Milosevic and ethnic cleansing. When radicals gain political power in Albania, they don't have a military at their disposal. So radicals in Albania, whether in positions of political power or not, rely on terrorism or guerrilla fighting to achieve their nationalist goals. I believe that if Serbia had no military, there would be terrorist acts against Albanians as well as against Serbians

Based on the little I know about situations in those areas: Chechnya should have independence; Tibet is already independent? It should be anyhow; Ireland should have independence if the majority of the population so wishes. And the Republic of Srpska I know next to nothing about, other than that it is populated mainly by Serbians in a predominantly Bosniak Muslim country.

I'm not trying to convince you that the U.S. love Albanians more than other ethnic groups in the Balkans. Chances are, American support of ethnic Albanians is due to the actions of Milosevic, which were the first major Kosovo conflicts to come to the wider attention of the American public.

Albania has its own military, I don't see why it wouldn't use it in a conflict. But fear of being crushed by Serbia in a possible conflict is something else...

Americans supported Albanians not because of Milosevic's actions but because of their strategic and military interests in the region of Balkans. Plus the fact they were paid excellently to do the job by dirty money from herion and weapons trafficking.

Albanians themselves admitted they spent around 20 billion dollars on lobbying and bribing US and European politicians during the last couple of decades.

Serbs did not spend a penny on that.

Illyrian Princess · #23 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drama

We? You live in Macedonia? They have all of those and can do whatever Macedonians can. If they did not have a right to speak or government was so tough on them they would be scared to even protest or have guns. It is actually quite opposite. Dream of greater Albania is what motivates them.

No, I do not live in Macedonia. I know people who do.
Scared?I dont think so.
Majority will stand up and seek rights. It's in human nature to ask what is not given. We dont ask for much---to be treated equally. That is not much,is it?

Contrary to claims of following laws for human rights equally amongst Macedonians and Albanians, Human Rights Watch still received and receives reports of law abuse. We all know, by now, that it is never ending in Macedonia [as well as Serbia,cant forget that].This has been going on for years. It is STILL happening.
http://hrw.org/

Quote:

"Persistent police abuse in Macedonia is simply shocking. Macedonia must urgently address the violence in its police stations. Ethnic Albanians are being severely abused, and in some cases beaten to death, without the slightest prospect of accountability."
Elizabeth Andersen Executive Director Europe and Central Asia division

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/08/22/macedo1477.htm

Human Rights Watch (New York, June 25, 2001):
Excerpt from the "MACEDONIA PARAMILITARY 2000 ORDER":

Quote:

"We order all Shiptars [derogatory term for ethnic Albanians-tr.] who have objects for sale-shopkeepers here and around the Kwantaskhi bazaar-to leave within three days, and for those Shiptars from Aracinovo, the deadline is 24 hours. After this deadline, all the shops will be burned, and if someone tries to protect [them], the same will be killed without warning."
"We inform Shiptars of the Macedonian republic that for every killed police officer or soldier 100 Shiptars who do not have citizenship or who took citizenship after 1994 will be killed. For every police officer or soldier disabled, 50 Shiptars will be killed. For every wounded police officer or soldier wounded, 10 Shiptars will be killed, no matter what gender or age."
"We inform Shiptars who do not have citizenship or got it after 1994 to leave Macedonia before June 25 this year, at midnight. After this deadline, we will start with the cleansing-- "The Longest Night" courtesy of Macedonia Paramilitary 2000.

"This pamphlet is exactly the kind of thing that could lead to widespread ethnic violence. The government and international community have to stop it now."
[Holly Cartner, HRW Executive director Europe and Central Asia division]

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/06/macedon0625.htm

The two groups still continue to lead distinct and separate lives.

What Macedonia needs to do is weed out any group or people who pose a threat to their nation and well being of their citizens, Albanian or Macedonian. They both need to agree to equal rights and NOT let violations occur. Of course, that is only in my dreams.

Illyrian Princess · #24 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath

Albania has its own military, I don't see why it wouldn't use it in a conflict. But fear of being crushed by Serbia in a possible conflict is something else...

We are SO scared.

Quote:

Albanians themselves admitted they spent around 20 billion dollars on lobbying and bribing US and European politicians during the last couple of decades.

Source please? This is unheard of.

AmusedToDeath · #25 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illyrian Princess

Source please? This is unheard of.

You should ask the mafia boss Bexhet Pacolli, one of the richest Albanians in the world.. He is the main funder of the "Albanian cause" in Washington and Brussels. He openly admits the fact he was paying politicians all over the world to support Kosovo's independence.

TrueAlbo2006 · #26 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 11:41 AM

As far as I am concerned. the US government and EU accused the government of FYROM(or so called macedonia, i support greek's stance on this issue) for terror and manipulation. It was the government of FYROM THAT CAUSED THIS using guns and military at the polls. The US ambassador, french and german ambassadors condemned the acts pointing their finger directly to the government of FYROM.

Nice try amused.

TrueAlbo2006 · #27 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath

Albanians are granted the highest level of minority rights available in the world today in Macedonia. But that is not enough. And it is not about their rights, it's all about the land. They want half of Macedonia to fulfill their goal.

that's according to you....s..............u have no clue about this...albanians have no rights to even open a high school. so get ur facts straight before you say somehting...

AmusedToDeath · #28 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 12:09 PM

That's not true. Albanians are never satisfied with their rights' level. They always want more, that is the road to cutting off foreign pieces of land.

What about Macedonian rights in Albania?

Quote:

"The plight of the Macedonians in Albania is already known. Macedonians in Albania are discriminated against and the government continues to unrealistically present their numbers. Albania recognizes that on its territory live only 5,000 Macedonians. But we alone, as Macedonian organizations in Albania number 120,000 Macedonians who are members of our organizations, or if we investigate there are perhaps more then 350,000 Macedonians in Albania."

"According to the Albanian Constitution, the minorities are allowed 60% education in their mother language. But this is not happening. There are Macedonians who live in other parts of Albania who do not have the right to get an education in their own mother language, the Macedonian language. They do not have schools. But even where we have schools, there is very little. For example in the village of Pustets there is elementary education from first to fourth grade in Macedonian and one course in Albanian. What happens between fifth and eight grade? Only three courses are in Macedonian, and the history in taught only in seventh grade and only for one hour. But the worst of all is that although the kids study in Macedonian, the literature is not original. The Macedonian grammar is translated from Albanian grammar. This is one of our complaints. We demand that the children by educated with original Macedonian textbooks."

"The Albanian press has branded us a potential hotspot. After a peaceful protest, they began to treat us as terrorists, although nobody raised a gun to fight in Albania. All we did is sent a call that we are fighting for our rights through the institutions of the system. For example, we publicly proclaim that we do not like the Constitution of Albania. Why? In article 20 it is written that in Albania exist minorities whose cultural identity should be guaranteed and preserved. But which minorities are these? Let it say: Greek, Macedonian, Vlach, or Roma minority. The Albanian government is afraid of this because if this is written, i.e. if a real analysis is conducted, Albania is a multiethnic state. If you enter inner Albania, there live 40-45% of the minorities. There are Greeks, Vlachs, Macedonians, Roma. This is what the Albanian government is afraid of and this is why it conducted such census. This census was regularly conducted in only one village. It is discrimination and because of it Macedonia will have to develop a clear strategy for the plight of the Macedonians in the neighbouring countries." ...

http://www.macedoniansinalbania.org/...albania05.html
http://www.macedoniansinalbania.org/

TrueAlbo2006 · #29 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath

That's not true. Albanians are never satisfied with their rights' level. They always want more, that is the road to cutting off foreign pieces of land.

What about Macedonian rights in Albania?

http://www.macedoniansinalbania.org/...albania05.html
http://www.macedoniansinalbania.org/

not a reliable source....

again, the US government, Department of State accused the government of FYROM for incidents. The French ambassador witnessed the horror executed by uniformed police from FYROM's Ministry of Interior who even threatened one of the french monitoring representatives at the polls.
The US ambassador to FYROM gave a clear message, openly accusing the government for all the mess. So did EU.

Move on................

AmusedToDeath · #30 (**permalink**) 06-07-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueAlbo2006

not a reliable source....

again, the US government, Department of State accused the government of FYROM for incidents. The French ambassador witnessed the horror executed by uniformed police from FYROM's Ministry of Interior who even threatened one of the french monitoring representatives at the polls.
The US ambassador to FYROM gave a clear message, openly accusing the government for all the mess. So did EU.

Move on................

No, I will not move on.

Lets talk about the National Liberation Army for a while... Why do you think Macedonian security forces had to react with weapons? Because poor ethnic Albanians in Macedonia were breeding flowers and thus destabilizing the country?

Come on, Macedonia is full of Albanian gangs and terrorists whose goal is to cut off one large piece of Macedonia, primarily around the region of Tetovo (Macedonian Kosovo).

Quote:

The NLA: Human Rights Fighters or Terrorists?

Given the status of the ethnic Albanian minority in the Republic of Macedonia, most Macedonians believe that the KLA/NLA is a group of thugs with the sole intent of further destabilizing the Balkans, not human rights fighters. After all, following the withdrawal of the Yugoslav security forces from Kosovo, virtually all non-Albanians were forced to flee their homes, and Christian monuments were destroyed. Moreover, if the respect for the human rights of ethnic minorities exhibited by the Macedonian authorities is too grave so as to drive a group of people in an armed insurgency for more rights, why then have we not witnessed other ethnic groups in Macedonia following a similar path to that of the so-called NLA, or why have other ethnic minorities in the Balkans - like the Macedonians and Greeks in Albania for instance, who have none of the aforementioned human rights to enjoy and are economically and socially worse off than the Macedonian Albanians - not taken such steps? The KLA/NLA has shady relations with criminal gangs involved in prostitution, drug-traffic and people and weapons smuggling, as well as bin Laden's organization al-Qaeda, links that shed light on what may be the true reason for the armed conflicts initiated by the KLA/NLA, a reason good enough to explain the aforementioned discrepancy between the claims of the ethnic Albanian terrorists and their deeds.

The origins ofthe KLA/NLA are quite interesting. The New York Times reported that the KLA "began on the radical fringe of Kosovar Albanian politics, originally made up of diehard Marxist-Leninists (who were bankrolled in the old days by the Stalinist dictatorship next door in Albania) as well as by descendants of the fascist militias raised by the Italians in World War II." Congressman Ron Paul of Texas stated that "t[B]he United States Government has in the past referred to the Kosovo Liberation Army leaders as thugs, terrorists, Marxists, and drug dealers.[/b]" The Times called the KLA "Marxist-led force funded by dubious sources, including drug money." The US State Department does not even consider the KLA/NLA as freedom fighters, for it states the following regarding their terrorist activities in the 2000 Report on Patterns of Global Terrorism:

In Southeastern Europe, groups of ethnic Albanians have conducted armed attacks against government forces in southern Serbia and in Macedonia since 1999. One group in southern Serbia calls itself the Liberation Army of Presevo, Medvedja, and Bujanovac (PMBLA). One group in Macedonia calls itself the National Liberation Army (NLA). Both groups include members who fought with the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in 1998-99 and have used their wartime connections to obtain funding and weapons from Kosovo and elsewhere. The PMBLA has, on occasion, harassed and detained civilians traveling through areas it controls. Both the PMBLA and the NLA have fired indiscriminately upon civilian centers. (In the same region, ethnic Albanian assailants carried out a terrorist attack against a bus in Kosovo on 16 February 2001, killing at least seven civilians and wounding 43 others.)

In its latest report on international drug trafficking, the U.S. State Department identifies Macedonia as part of the "Balkans Route," the notorious link along which organized crime gangs transport heroin and other drugs from Turkey to Albania and across the Adriatic Sea to Italy. Macedonia is also part of a newer, shorter route on which drugs travel through Kosovo to Western Europe, the report says. The State Department praises the Macedonian government for cooperating with efforts to control drug smuggling. Could it be that the interests of the Albanian Mafia clashed with the Macedonian security forces? The Irish Times reported that according to a leading criminologist "the rebels fighting in the hills of Macedonia and southern Serbia were the paramilitary wing of an Albanian mafia exporting drugs and trafficking in humans to Europe and beyond [...] 'Every mafia needs two things - a safe home territory, and a diaspora. The Albanians now have the diaspora through the refugees from the Kosovo war." The same article quotes Mr. Xavier Raufer, a researcher at the Paris Institute of Criminology and author of The Albanian Mafia, "the latest guerrilla offensives on the margins of the province were a fight to control two key points on a smuggling route known as the 'Balkans Golden Triangle'." Mr. Raufer went on to say in his interview for Radio Netherlands that the "ethnic Albanian rebels fighting in the hills of Macedonia are the paramilitary wing of an Albanian Mafia exporting drugs and trafficking humans to Europe and even further." Similarly, the German newspaper Die Welt am Sonntag reported that "large amounts of money are flowing from organized drug- and people-smuggling in both Kosovo and Macedonia [...]." The same article reports that one of the heads of the Albanian Mafia, who controlled the Central European drug market, financed the terrorists' activities in Tetovo and Kosovo with money from drug sales. After all, The Guardian reported that "Kosovo has become a "smugglers' paradise" supplying up to 40% of the heroin sold in Europe and North America;" the same was confirmed by both Die Berliner Zeitung and Der Hamburger Abendblatt. Jane's reported that "some 70 per cent of the heroin reaching Germany and Switzerland is now reckoned to have been transported through Albania and/or by Albanian groups, and the figure for Greece may be closer to 85 per cent." BBC reported that according to Ray Kendall, the British outgoing Secretary General of Interpol, "at least 80 percent of the heroin entering Western Europe does so through Turkey and the Balkans - with Albanian gangs playing an increasingly important role." BBC also quoted Cataldo Motta, Italian anti-mafia prosecutor saying "Everything passes via the Albanians. The road for drugs and arms and people...is in Albanian hands." Frank J. Cilluffo, Deputy Director of Global Organized Crime and Program director to Counterterrorism Task Force testified before U.S. House Committee on the Judiciary that "the KLA raise part of their funds from the sale of narcotics. Albania and Kosovo lie at the heart of the 'Balkan Route' that links the 'Golden Crescent' of Afghanistan and Pakistan to the drug markets of Europe. This route is worth an estimated $400 billion a year and handles 80 percent of heroin destined for Europe."

http://www.macedonia.org/crisis/story2.html

Afghanistan is world's No1 heroin producer. It is now controlled by Uncle Sam.
All heroin that comes from Afghanistan to Europe goes through the Balkans, Kosovo and Albania being the heart of the Balkan route. Albanian mafia distributes this poison to EU countries after that, supplying nearly 80% of European heroin market.

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