Thread: Gobekli Tepe

Originally Posted by injest

didn't I read that the New World didn't have the wheel when it was 'discovered'??

We say they didn't have the wheel because we haven't found evidence that they used them. On the other hand, if they were moving huge blocks, it's pretty (*)(*)(*)(*)ed obvious they did have at least log rollers among their collection of tools. Certainly more likely than tractor beams, cranes, bulldozers, or whatever 'ancient technology' people want to propose. There's really no way to construct something in the mountains with stones larger than a few hundred pounds without wheels or log rollers. Logistically it's just not possible.

it is VERY interesting to me to speculate on how and why. What I wonder is this: current theories say that human civilization evolved in a fairly straightforward line from primitive to modern, with an occassional dip here and there...

I guess if you characterize devastating losses of culture, art, and technological knowledge as 'occasional dips'. Development of human societies has been along multiple concurrent paths, some taking huge declines, others rising. The general tendency has been towards modern civilization, but that's not to say that all societies have evenly progressed along one technological line largely uninterrupted. The medieval European dark ages weren't the only dark ages in human history.

That said, we'd still find evidence of cranes and other technology if they'd had them way back when. It's far less controversial to place log rollers among the list of technologies in the new world than to say that some bit of decorative art means they had airplanes and spaceships.

civilizations rise and fall but overall, the human race has steadily advanced...WE think WE are the most advanced civilization that has ever appeared on this planet and that our descendents will be more advanced than we are but maybe that isn't true.

We've never found even one fragment of an 'ancient crane', nor any real evidence suggesting high technology.

Maybe history isn't quite so clear cut. Maybe we AREN'T the most advanced people that have ever evolved on this planet.. Maybe some time in the past a civilization as advanced or more DID evolve and DID fall for whatever reasons and all those stories of Atlantis are just primal memories?

It is and always was a myth. Plato created Atlantis as a philosophical statement about government and power, not an actual testament to the truth of what happened. The truth is that an actual ancient technological civilization would have left behind at least some fragmentary clues as to their existence. That's not present in the historical or archeological record. Neither is it possible they were creating one-off examples of high technology, because often these early societies show no evidence of modern social organization, nor evidence of advanced materials science. Why on earth would these societies focus on building cranes and airplanes and whatnot if they can't even build a mud brick hut safely? The very first thing people turn to when they get some technology is making their life easier, then the focus on going to war with it. We've found evidence of neither. This lack of evidence for basic, foundational technology almost certainly precludes the possibility of more advanced examples of machinery. There's no way that people limited to, for example, bronze forging were going to be able to create a usable crane capable of lifting multi-ton blocks. While yes, steel was produced by roughly 1500 BC (with some limited evidence of earlier production), it certainly wasn't used for much other than weapons. We do not find examples of steel bolts, nuts, nails, beams, cast steel machine parts, or any other uses of it. One lone steel valve would be enough to totally validate the possibility, but there's never been any evidence of that.

These are the same sort of people who had their entire world revolutionized by things like an archemedes screw--that wasn't going to happen if they had enough knowledge of hydraulics to power cranes capable of lifting megalithic stones.

just something interesting (to me at least) to consider...and if it happened to them..it could happen to us. There is no guarantee that we won't experience a cataclysmic (sp) event that will erase most of the traces of our existance from the earth.

Any event that would wipe all trace of modern society off the face of the earth--every fragment of plastic, every shaped piece of steel, every titanium valve on an airplane--would be so devastating that it would be recent and in the geological record, and completely global. It would almost certainly wipe out human beings as a whole. We're talking mass destruction on the order of a large asteroid strike.

Any cataclysm that would destroy all record of modern society would only do so because it would leave such massive record of itself.

Originally Posted by Someone

We say they didn't have the wheel because we haven't found evidence that they used them. On the other hand, if they were moving huge blocks, it's pretty (*)(*)(*)(*)ed obvious they did have at least log rollers among their collection of tools. Certainly more likely than tractor beams, cranes, bulldozers, or whatever 'ancient technology' people want to propose. There's really no way to construct something in the mountains with stones larger than a few hundred pounds without wheels or log rollers. Logistically it's just not possible.

log rollers are not wheels, and I never said they didn't...I asked the question, chill a bit, please! We aren't talking abortion or gay rights here...can't we be civil for THIS at least?

I guess if you characterize devastating losses of culture, art, and technological knowledge as 'occasional dips'. Development of human societies has been along multiple concurrent paths, some taking huge declines, others rising. The general tendency has been towards modern civilization, but that's not to say that all societies have evenly progressed along one technological line largely uninterrupted. The medieval European dark ages weren't the only dark ages in human history.

That said, we'd still find evidence of cranes and other technology if they'd had them way back when. It's far less controversial to place log rollers among the list of technologies in the new world than to say that some bit of decorative art means they had airplanes and spaceships.

who said anything about spaceships? are we even discussing the same thing? are you in the wrong thread or am I?

We've never found even one fragment of an 'ancient crane', nor any real evidence suggesting high technology.

It is and always was a myth. Plato created Atlantis as a philosophical statement about government and power, not an actual testament to the truth of what happened. The truth is that an actual ancient technological civilization would have left behind at least some fragmentary clues as to their existence. That's not present in the historical or archeological record. Neither is it possible they were creating one-off examples of high technology, because often these early societies show no evidence of modern social organization, nor evidence of advanced materials science. Why on earth would these societies focus on building cranes and airplanes and whatnot if they can't even build a mud brick hut safely? The very first thing people turn to when they get some technology is making their life easier, then the focus on going to war with it. We've found evidence of neither. This lack of evidence for basic, foundational technology almost certainly precludes the possibility of more advanced examples of machinery. There's no way that people limited to, for example, bronze forging were going to be able to create a usable crane capable of lifting multi-ton blocks. While yes, steel was produced by roughly 1500 BC (with some limited evidence of earlier production), it certainly wasn't used for much other than weapons. We do not find examples of steel bolts, nuts, nails, beams, cast steel machine parts, or any other uses of it. One lone steel valve would be enough to totally validate the possibility, but there's never been any evidence of that.

you have never heard of out of place artifacts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-place_artifact

not saying they are all real; although some have been proven to be true artifacts..for example the Antikythera mechanism, a computer built in 100 BC..

you can't prove a negative, just like we didnt' know about Gobekli Tepe til now, there may be more artifacts laying around we haven't discovered. Conventional wisdom said Stone Henge was the most ancient site too before this one was found..

These are the same sort of people who had their entire world revolutionized by things like an archemedes screw--that wasn't going to happen if they had enough knowledge of hydraulics to power cranes capable of lifting megalithic stones.

Any event that would wipe all trace of modern society off the face of the earth--every fragment of plastic, every shaped piece of steel, every titanium valve on an airplane--would be so devastating that it would be recent and in the geological record, and completely global. It would almost certainly wipe out human beings as a whole. We're talking mass destruction on the order of a large asteroid strike.

Any cataclysm that would destroy all record of modern society would only do so because it would leave such massive record of itself.

and in a few thousand years, all traces would be wiped out too...we KNOW that there have been cataclysmic events in Earth's history. The people that made Gobekli Tepe could have been the last surviving members of that group of people. Evidence seems to show that the more recent artifacts are the most primitive and as they find older ones, they are more refined and show more skill...which would indicate that the civilization was in serious decline...

like I said, just something interesting to think about...but that's just me, feel free to ignore the idea but I see no reason to be snippy about it.

how do YOU explain ancient buildings?

Originally Posted by teeceemv

Well, YOU'VE just spewed the current archaeological line of BS!!! I'm not saying anything about aliens. I'm saying that based on what we KNOW of these peoples, most of these megaliths SHOULD not have been possible.

Talk to men who move heavy things. Ask them how to move a block of stone weighing from 50-400 TONS! And some weigh even more.

Getting the picture?

I know these stones were quarried, transported, and carved. But using what tools, what math, what language, what math, what technology? In other words, HOW DID THEY DO IT?

There are a lot of missing pages to these stories, because based on current archaeological dogma, again, these megaliths SHOULD not have been possible.

Regarding the Great Pyramid. There are 2.3 million stones. If built in 22 years as was written, that means that a stone must be cut, transported, and fitted every 5 minutes, 24 hours a day! Every 5 minutes of every day for 22 years. Oh really? Since they likely did not work at night for various reasons, the numbers become even more insane. No way.

apparently we aren't supposed to think or speculate, we should simply sit like children and wait for 'them' to tell us what to think...



any deviation from official rulings are NOT allowed!

Originally Posted by teeceemv

You keep mentioning aliens, as if I had somehow said they were involved. Why? I never made any mention of aliens. Only you have.

We know the level of technology of the Egyptians. It is well written.

We know the builders of Puma Punku are UNKNOWN. They are not known to any existing peoples in the area. They were a pre-Inca people. The largest stones weighing up to a couple hundred TONS were transported there... from 10 km away, 13,000 ft altitude. The remainder were quarried 90 km away. There is no known written language of any known peoples at the time the site was supposedly built. The wheel was not known to exist at the time of construction, and there were no trees for miles. The stone was cut with incredible intricacy and used "cramps" to secure stones together. These cramps were made of an unusual alloy and the molten alloy was "poured" directly into the sockets.

Gobekli Tepi was also built by an unknown people for an unknown purpose. It is estimated to be at least 11,000 years old. We are supposed to believe that it was built by "hunter gatherers". Neolithic people who wander around searching for food. Yet they have the skills to quarry, transport, and carve 7 ton blocks of stone.

One has to ask how these people did this, and why the hell did they invest such incredible cost and effort to complete. WHERE IS THE PROOF OF THAT?

If they used lost technology, then we are talking about an immensely different history than the one we have been taught. And a human history that is far far older than we have ever believed possible. WHERE IS THE PROOF OF THAT?

How and why have never been proven. And yet you seem eager to criticize others who question the mainstream explanation. Not very scientific of you, is it.

Now, where did I ever mention aliens?

nowhere...he is apparently responding to the voices in his head...

when did "they perhaps had more mathematical knowledge than we admit" become a "claim"? perhaps means maybe...it isn't a statement of fact.

"they perhaps had more mathematical knowledge than we admit"

and

"they had more mathematical knowledge than we admit"

are NOT the same sentence nor do they mean the same.

Originally Posted by Someone

Any event that would wipe all trace of modern society off the face of the earth--every fragment of plastic, every shaped piece of steel, every titanium valve on an airplane--would be so devastating that it would be recent and in the geological record, and completely global. It would almost certainly wipe out human beings as a whole. We're talking mass destruction on the order of a large asteroid strike.

Any cataclysm that would destroy all record of modern society would only do so because it would leave such massive record of itself.

and one other thing...how very egocentric of you to think that any advanced civilization as great or greater than ours must be exactly like ours and use the same materials and techniques? You yourself evoke the concept that the same idea (domes) can be achieved by different materials and methods..why do you think an advanced civilization would HAVE to have plastic and titanium?

Originally Posted by injest

didn't I read that the New World didn't have the wheel when it was 'discovered'??



it is VERY interesting to me to speculate on how and why. What I wonder is this: current theories say that human civilization evolved in a fairly straightforward line from primitive to modern, with an occassional dip here and there...civilizations rise and fall but overall, the human race has steadily advanced...WE think WE are the most advanced civilization that has ever appeared on this planet and that our descendents will be more advanced than we are but maybe that isn't true.

Maybe history isn't quite so clear cut. Maybe we AREN'T the most advanced people that have ever evolved on this planet.. Maybe some time in the past a civilization as advanced or more DID evolve and DID fall for whatever reasons and all those stories of Atlantis are just primal memories?

just something interesting (to me at least) to consider...and if it happened to them..it could happen to us. There is no guarantee that we won't experience a cataclysmic (sp) event that will erase most of the traces of our existance from the earth.

We don't know, it could have happened a dozen times..humans reaching high levels and then falling back to primitives again.

A WINNER!!!!

That's where I was going with this! I wanted to see if anyone would come to that conclusion, but alas, aliens were the best someone could do prior to this post (not that I would dismiss that possibility either).

Clearly man did not develop in a linear fashion, and DNA evidence presents some serious questions about our so-called evolution. But it would appear WE are not the most advanced humans to inhabit the Earth. Year after year it seems that archaeologists push mans history back further and further.

Originally Posted by margot

this Is 11,000 Years Old And About The Same Age As The Granaries Found South Of The Dead Sea.

Fyi.........

Originally Posted by historycircus

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Wonderful archaeological site. Has anyone here read compared this to Sumerian legends?

Göbekli Tepe is a Neolithic (stone-age) hilltop sanctuary erected at the top of a mountain ridge in southeastern Turkey, some 15 kilometers (9 mi) northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (formerly Urfa / Edessa). It is the oldest human-made religious structure yet discovered.

The site, having been under excavation since 1994, by German and Turkish archaeologists, was most likely erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BCE (c. 12,000 years ago). Together with Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionized understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.

Originally Posted by historycircus

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Wonderful archaeological site. Has anyone here read compared this to Sumerian legends?

Fabulous..............