Thread: The Dark age of science 2012 or God did it~

The Scientific Dark ages 2012> ?

Short version and note. I have been providing a short version of some of my long complicated posts, for obvious reasons! However I suggest for this thread unless one has a good scientific back ground the entire boring thing be read.


The ‘kind of’ Short version.

Science has arrived at its limits. The math and other tools that once perfectly described our universe both big and small are no longer useful to describe the big questions. Those are what happened before the big bang or what lies inside singularities of black holes, a domain where time does not exist and all our rules of science break down. I make a point in the thread that metaphysics is a valid alternative way probe and maybe understand how the universe works ie the workings of singularities of the Big Bang and Black Holes. Unless we discover a working theory for quantum gravity which is very unlikely, we are in a dark age of science right now and have been at least concerning the big question for eighty years.


The Looooong version ha ha~

The new dark age of science or the Metaphysical Renaissance of 'God did it'~

I was watching a science program* on the science channel last night where physicists were lamenting the sad fact that the physics and science that described the universe perfectly for 80 years was wrong or incomplete of faulty. Specifically they were talking about being unable to merge the world of the very big with the world of the very small, i.e. quantum theory with classical theory, such as Einstein’s theory of relativity etc. Since those two theories could not be made to work together our science was useless when we are trying to describe what happens inside a black hole or what happened before t-0 of the big bang (’before’) the singularity and the universe began to exist. The trouble is that this stump has been troubling science for eight plus decades. Einstein spent the last years of his life trying to merge the two theories.

* beware of what is called science on the discovery channel or the science channel (both the same company) etc. I have noticed so many glaring errors that a good 5th grade student would spot. That goes for the history channel too.

Our science simply collapses if we try to discover what made the big bang begin. I suspect we are entering a dark ages of science. Even with our latest tools like the super-collider at CERN and the smaller one in the USA, our new satellites, the questions are even more numerous than ever.
However for the religious or spiritual minded, the answer has been around 2000 years or more. The reason science fails at the ‘singularity’ of the big bang is that the creation of the universe is beyond the reach of our current scientific tools. God created the universe, probably as per the KCA. I believe that QFT and Classical theory may never be merged in a compatible manner, unless we open our eyes and make a paradigm shift of how we investigate subjects like singularities, where time stops and our scientific tools are forbidden to enter. The only thing left is the spiritual non-tangible tools of the human mind and soul. Philosophy 'neo-natural' science, and metaphysics trump the old science called positive science aka the scientific method.

Philosophy ie metaphysics (think Kurt Godel) have no such limitations as our remarkable but useless tools of science when it comes to what happens ‘inside’ singularities. Save for some kind of astonishing new physics or a new type of fundamental physics or even a new scientific break through that marries quantum physics with classical physics I fear we are indeed entering a scientific dark age.

~reva~

Short answer; Rubbish!

Long answer; This is yet another repetition of the old canard that because we haven't (yet, maybe) been able to apply scientific method to answer every single question ever asked, science has "failed" so it should be thrown away and replaced with something else (often, as in this case, a specifically defined yet totally unproven - even via philosophy - God).

Regardless of what people on TV programs may or may not have said, science is still perfectly valid for the countless things we currently use it for and much, much more. It even remains valid for many of the things we've so far been unable to answer - the failing there isn't scientific method as a concept but our limitations in applying it.

There are gaps, possible unassailable gaps, in our understanding of the universe. They're not gaps in or of science though - if we could somehow access all the raw information necessary, scientific method could be applied to understand it. There could well be fundamental practical problems with that though, akin to being unable to look at your own eyeball or observing the surface of a box you're inside.

That isn't to say that philosophy or metaphysics (however you're defining it) aren't valid tools as well. There is absolutely no need to throw away science to use them though. Indeed, it could be that only a combination can allows us to fully or better understand some things.

None of this justifies simply throwing in the term "God" in to the mix though. Regardless of the methodology you wish to use, you'd need to present a whole load more than throw-away comments about 2000 years of history (a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things) to start making definitive statements about specific divine beings and their actions. Condemning science and promoting philosophy simply as a means to promote a religious idea would be grossly dishonest and I hope that wasn't your intention.

Originally Posted by RevAnarchist

I make a point in the thread that metaphysics is a valid alternative way probe and maybe understand how the universe works ie the workings of singularities of the Big Bang and Black Holes.

Which metaphysics is that? Narnia or Middle Earth?

Originally Posted by RevAnarchist

The Scientific Dark ages 2012> ?

Short version and note. I have been providing a short version of some of my long complicated posts, for obvious reasons! However I suggest for this thread unless one has a good scientific back ground the entire boring thing be read.


The ‘kind of’ Short version.

Science has arrived at its limits. The math and other tools that once perfectly described our universe both big and small are no longer useful to describe the big questions.

not much bigger than descibing the universe and no god talks about that, people do.

the BIG question is how the transition of mass, energy and time works.

but from a big galaxy to a big group of galaxies, without science, the morons of the world wouldnt even know the word "galaxy".

Those are what happened before the big bang or what lies inside singularities of black holes, a domain where time does not exist and all our rules of science break down.[/b]

what 'singularity' and what 'black hole'?


neither, like every god, has ever been proven to exist.

the black hole is like the 'gods' of the morons, a fignewton of the imagination, a manmade idea

I make a point in the thread that metaphysics is a valid alternative way probe and maybe understand how the universe works ie the workings of singularities of the Big Bang and Black Holes. Unless we discover a working theory for quantum gravity which is very unlikely, we are in a dark age of science right now and have been at least concerning the big question for eighty years.
[/b]

gravity is the entangled energy between points in time

for example: my good looks are prehaps why you are so attracted to me



but just so each have a chance to get out of this thread, early..................... the op has zero credibility

Originally Posted by Beast Mode

Which metaphysics is that? Narnia or Middle Earth?

Hmm'. You must of read the short version. No, even though the word metaphysics has a double meaning I was referring to its technical form, that's the reason I gave Kurt Godel as a keyword reference. It's a branch of science and philosophy, Google positive science metaphysical science. Or Google Kurt Godel the metaphysics vs the positivists at the Vienna Circle, Or check out this link. ;

DOC]
ON KURT GÖDEL'S PHILOSOPHY OF MATHEMATICS
www.cse.fau.edu/~marty/godel.doc
File Format: Microsoft Word - Quick View
by MK Solomon - Related articles
ON KURT GÖDEL'S PHILOSOPHY OF MATHEMATICS. by ... By Platonic metaphysics, we of course mean that abstract objects have an objective existence.

reva

Originally Posted by Bishadi

not much bigger than descibing the universe and no god talks about that, people do.

the BIG question is how the transition of mass, energy and time works.

but from a big galaxy to a big group of galaxies, without science, the morons of the world wouldnt even know the word "galaxy".

what 'singularity' and what 'black hole'?


neither, like every god, has ever been proven to exist.

the black hole is like the 'gods' of the morons, a fignewton of the imagination, a manmade idea



gravity is the entangled energy between points in time

for example: my good looks are prehaps why you are so attracted to me



but just so each have a chance to get out of this thread, early..................... the op has zero credibility

Oops I meant to say I liked this post and hit the wrong button ....sorry! Will answer it soon, well so called honest Joes will be last...tit for tat eh?

reva

When the tools we use to understand the universe become obsolete we just need to create new tools.
For sure some things are beyond our brain's capacity to understand things but with observation and experimentation sooner or later we will learn to understand ( to use a B5 expression ) .
I feel this is the golden age of science where we have learn everything we need to know for our level and now we need to make the jump to the next , it may be hard but we can do it , this is what humans do extent their horizons .

God's people are just a gravitational force that keeps us spinning around conservativism before we are slingshot into progress and innovation, think of the renaissance , there wouldn't be any strong motivation to undo the Ptolemeic cosmotheory if the church wasn't so stubbornly attached to it .

*galaxy = gala = milk , not a scientific term
*metaphysics = meta/after or beyond and physis = nature indeed some things are beyond our nature but this doesn't mean that our nature isn't part of those things , we are a tiny part of the universe and it shouldn't be expected to enclose every part of it .

Originally Posted by RevAnarchist

Hmm'. You must of read the short version. No, even though the word metaphysics has a double meaning I was referring to its technical form, that's the reason I gave Kurt Godel as a keyword reference. It's a branch of science and philosophy, Google positive science metaphysical science. Or Google Kurt Godel the metaphysics vs the positivists at the Vienna Circle, Or check out this link. ;

DOC]
ON KURT GÖDEL'S PHILOSOPHY OF MATHEMATICS
www.cse.fau.edu/~marty/godel.doc
File Format: Microsoft Word - Quick View
by MK Solomon - Related articles
ON KURT GÖDEL'S PHILOSOPHY OF MATHEMATICS. by ... By Platonic metaphysics, we of course mean that abstract objects have an objective existence.

reva

Yah, that was a great idea for the 60's. But don't you think it's time to take new evidence into account? Science and philosophy may have been the exact same thing 400 years ago, but there's a clear distinction now, don't you think?

We use better tools.

Problem solved.

Originally Posted by RevAnarchist

You must of read the short version.

That is ungrammatical.