No; I haven't heard any defense of Nixon from you, agreed.

And to clarify, Nixon was a PALEOcon. This is where labels become important. A neocon would never have done many of the things Nixon did.

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Yes, he was not a neocon, on that we agree as well.

Nixon was clearly no neocon. I don't think a paleocon would do the things Nixon did either. Paleocons would never reach out to the communists the way Nixon did. They also would have nothing to do with the internationalism that Nixon/Kissinger often embraced.

I wouldn't put "con" next to his name at all myself. His policies appear to be those more of a moderate.

I have to disagree here. Because a core part of Paleocon ideology is a non-intrusive foreign policy. So I think they would be ok with cooperating with communists if the end result was more stability for us. The same is true where the "internetional community" is concerned. The only real difference between Paleocons and liberals on that issue is that Paleocons would never subordinate the US to international law. But I do think they would view the UN as a legitimate authority otherwise. Neocons would not.

Paleocons are not moralists or ideological crusaders the way Neocons are. In the end they are pragmatists.


I consider him a Paleocon for the reasons above, but I see your point. In a weird way, he actually did things a lot of modern liberals would like.

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I don't think the neocons are idealists or moralists at all. I believe that's their public face, the "exoteric" side suitable for consumption. As opposed to the "esoteric" side only for the initiated: in short, they are nihilists who use religious people for political ends; they are Machiavellians who use interventionsists for their own ends.

their "ideal" is enhancement of American power.

They would be just as happy working for a fascist government as for a more moderate conservative one.

however, I suppose we've already had this discussion about them, and aren't likely to agree on them now.

In other words, all neocons are the devil and there is no evidence that will convince you otherwise. How very rational of you. You'd make a great evangelist.


...no matter what we say to the contrary, because we're the devil. Got it.

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There are some who appreciate power in all ideologies, but to write off an entire movement and ascribe evil secret handshakes to those involved sounds like aluminum foil beanie stuff to me.

That is pretty much my view as well.

If you are unwilling to give someone the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in what they claim to be their belief's, then further debate with them is pointless.

I can sum up my belief about Neo-Cons in one sentence:

Neo-Cons, are tyrants.

All that crap about "moralism" and "ideological crusading", is nothing
more than a cheap excuse for tyranny.

George Bush, is exactly like King George - he's a tyrant.

He has no respect for other peoples' turf. He thinks he can trample
all over the world foisting his idea of democracy onto people who
don't want it.

He's pissed off everyone, and he's squandered away our entire
national capital (monetary, political, and every other way), in favor of his
idiotic utopian pipe dream.

I submit to you, one and all, that the results of tyranny are the same,
every time. Look through the history books, there oughta be a lesson
there.

Georgw W Bush is a tyrant. He wants to dictate terms to everyone.
The Congress, the Judiciary, the UN, the World Court, the Chinese, the Iranians....

You know, every other word out of his mouth is a "must" or a "should".

That guy, has zero political credibility.

Everyone in the whole entire world hates his guts. His highest approval ratings are right here in the US, and that would be 31%. Everywhere else in the world, they're right in the toilet bowl, which is exactly where they belong.

You ask anyone in Saudi Arabia what they think of the American People, and they'll tell you they [b]love[/u] us - they think very highly of us. But they hate George W Bush, and his policies, and everything he stands for. And they can't understand, how the American People could elect an idiot like that to the highest office in the land.

They are looking at us with extreme skepticism right now, wondering whether the American Peopel have completely lost our marbles.

You know, I don't know about you guys, but when I communicate with "other people" around the world, I'm gonna go AROUND a clown like George W Bush.

I'm gonna make sure that the rest of the world understands, that the American People "get it", even if our President doesn't.

I surely don't want a man like that, representing me, or my family, or my country.

You know, it occurs to me, that the Neo-Cons are exactly like any other kind of "moral crusaders" throughout history. (*)(*)(*)(*) idiots. More wars have been started in that name, than probably any other name anywhere, any time. Religious wars, political wars, economic wars.... you know, look at the "meta" reasons there, and they're all the same. ALL of 'em.

But the Neo-Cons, they won't "see" that. You can stick the evidence right up into their noses, and they refuse to "see" it. You know, it would be like sticking a Carbon-14 fossil right up into the nose of a Young-Earth creationist, and they'd find some excuse to deny the evidence.

(*)(*)(*)(*) idiots. I say we get rid of 'em forever. Unfortunately, such a thing is "not possible", 'cause they keep cropping up again with each new generation.