Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by Mitchell243, Jan 12, 2012.

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Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

  1. Yes

    40.6%
  2. No

    59.4%
  1. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Typical RepubliCON cop out.

    As a taxpayer, I helped finance Israel's HC coverage for its citizens. Now all I want is to have my medical costs paid for just like I paid for others.
     
  2. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Because that is precisely what they are.

    45,000 Americans die every year (that's 900,000 in the past 20 years) while these RepubliCONs laugh and celebrate. That is sociopathic lunacy of the worse kind.
     
  3. Rickrolld300

    Rickrolld300 New Member

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    I think our healthcare system should be free to the American people including illegal immigrants. If your're poor then why should you suffer? Why can't we have a healthcare system in where the government pays for everything. Look at Europe and Canada, they are on socialized medicine. In Europe, their healthcare system is awesome and no one complains about it. The way their healthcare system is that most of their income is subtracted into tax money which goes towards the government to provide its citizens free healthcare. Let's say person A makes $880 and for the government to provide free healthcare, they need to take away $300 from your paycheck. Is it worth it? Of course it is, you will never have to worry about paying the bill just because you can't afford to pay it when the government can pay it for you. The answer is "Yes, the American People should have Free National Healthcare." Who are we to deny anyone healthcare just because they do not have the money to pay for it? And when I mean Free Healthcare for all, I mean the best quiality medicines to patients as well. The generic brands should be cut off and the government should provide the Best Quality Healthcare there is. Just because healthcare is free does not mean you have to provide your citizens the cheapest quality of it. If healthcare is going to be free, then make it the best of it by providing citizens the BEST Quality healthcare there is. And to pay for it, raise taxes. If we want the best out of every service, then we need to start paying more taxes. I'm sure people wouldn't mind paying taxes if they want the best out of everything.
     
  4. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    No cop out, Jack, I just refuse to pay for your health care as well as my own. I have put in to many years for my family to have fools take the health care I have worked for away. I have no intention to have my wife and I go on rationed health care just because those like you are fool enough to think you would get the same care or better with UHC. I can call names to if you really want to get into that.
     
  5. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Because I refuse to pay for your health care as well as Illegals. Any other questions??
     
  6. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    But you are only too happy to pay for Israel's health care even though that country has fomented so much war and trouble overseas which has increased your tax bill.

    Further, 45,000 Americans die every year because of your RepubliCON ideology which is a blood tax - 900,000 lives in the past 20 years. If these lives had only been spared their productivity would more than make up for the cost of UHC. In the long run society would have benefited FAR more from that type of coverage than from its absence.
     
  7. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Fool enough based upon how the rest of the world works? heh. Rationing. Rationing away unnecessary care maybe. For profit hospitals try to milk well-insured people for all they're worth and the only thing standing between you and a procedure that would do more harm than good is the integrity of your doctor under intense pressure from the non-physician running his hospital to be "more productive." Sorry, just because we use only the newest expensive drugs and expensive machines when they haven't been proven to be more effective doesn't mean we have higher quality care in America. It just means we're willing to throw money away to make it look like we're doing more than the hospital down the street because consumers of healthcare don't have a clue what's going on and the incentives of those who do are COMPLETELY misaligned because we're still worried that adopting universal healthcare is like surrendering to the red army.
     
  8. sbskeeper

    sbskeeper New Member

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    Or we could cut costs by staying in the private sector by increasing preventative care, reduce the amount of people that use the emergency room as a primary source of care, limit the life of patents on name brand drugs so that more generics are available and medicines are more affordable for everyone, and reduce the amount of uninsured. Unless we address the factors that are actually responsible for driving up the costs of healthcare in the US we are just adding bureaucracy costs of increased wait time and less efficiency to an already expensive system.
     
  9. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    {{{"""But you are only too happy to pay for Israel's health care even though that country has fomented so much war and trouble overseas which has increased your tax bill."""}}}

    Good, the more Israelis we keep healthy the more Arabs they will kill. The more they kill the less that will attack the U.S.

    Since the Arabs are the ones that keep the war going over there I don't see your point.


    {{{"""Further, 45,000 Americans die every year because of your RepubliCON ideology which is a blood tax - 900,000 lives in the past 20 years. """}}}

    And just where do you pull your figures out of??? When you idiots want to push abortion you told Amrica that 10,000 women died from back ally abortions in 1964. The true number was 136. It's people such as your self that are responcible for the deaths of over 100 million Americans. On top of that aren't the majority of these Americans your crying about doppers and alcoholics, you know the ones that have destroied their body's with drugs and booze. And you Democommies keep dragging out number you pull out of you know where and throw out there to see if repeating them will fly.


    We already pay for anyone to get treatment in any hospital that takes government funds. Plus we have how many on the Welfare rolls that recieve full medical care off us?

    {{{"""In the long run society would have benefited FAR more from that type of coverage than from its absence""}}

    Only for those that want to sit back and say, "Uncle Sugar, take care of me from the crade to the grave". YUour the ones that keep screeming that we need to send everybody to collage to get a masters in advanced drinking. "Hey Dud, Party down.""" Next you are going to start crying about all the millions that need a roof over their head, and we need more food for the hungry in America. And did you know that there are kids going to school with holes in their shoes? Oh, we can't have that in "America". No, let's stop it right here and go no ferther. If the Democommies want their own little utopia, go buy a lage area, pool your money and live the life......., until the money runs out then you will be back crying you want the rest of us to pay for your way of life that you "Deserve".
     
  10. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    I voted yes, as I consider healthcare a human right. But to increase efficiency, government should buy it on the (regulated) market for those who lack the funds, not directly provide it. And there should be small fees to deter waste.
     
  11. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Funny, you all hold up Medicare as the ideal model for "Health care". Medicare turns down more procedures than all the insurance companies in America combined. And as far as the "For Profit Hospitals" go, if you don't like their prices and want to point the finger, find the nearest mirror and point it. You democommies are the ones that insisted they treat ANYONE that walks through the door, regardles if they could pay or not. That's like telling a grocery store that they have to give groceries to anybody that walks through the door regardless of their ablity to pay. How long do you thuink they would be in business??

    Since the Canadian P.M. and other high officals of Canada (and from all over the world) have came here to have their medical procedures done, I would say that speaks for it's self.
     
  12. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Health care is a States rights issue, not federal.
     
  13. Rickrolld300

    Rickrolld300 New Member

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    If we do not provide people free universal health care, then what will happen to the lower class that cannot afford healthcare and the illegal immigrants as well? Does America want to be responsible for the death of its own people that couldn't afford healthcare? Lets put it this way, there's a student that just graduated out of high school and wants to go to college to be a doctor. But this student does not have the money to go to college. And this student did not win any scholarships but his grades were outstanding. Now, do you want to limit the opportunities this student or any other student has to become someone in life? Why are we limiting opportunities in America? Why are we limiting the chance to save someone's life just because he/she could not afford Healthcare? And one thing that stands out clear, doctors work for insurance companies and not for its people. If you want to see my point, watch the documentary video by Michael Moore "Sicko" on youtube.
     
  14. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Friend, I have been part of the lower class most of my life and my family always had health care and it wasn't provided for by the government. And as far as Illegals go, tell them to go back to the country from which they came. They are 'ILLEGAL' or don't you know what the word means???

    I quite school in the 9th grade and isn't it funny that I was able to take care of my family for the last 49 years??? How is that possible without the governments help AND no education??? I find it hilarious that someone without a high school diploma has been able to do something all you educated Democommies are saying you can't do.
     
  15. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't watch Michael Moore for anything more than a laugh. Tell that fat Sicko to go to his beloved Cuba the next time he needs any kind of medical procedure
     
  16. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Preventive care from who? It doesn't pay to provide preventive care, so naturally the private sector isn't good at providing it. Some HMOs think about it, like Kaiser, but they have a tendency to undertreat their patients to save money because of the way they're structured, while many others overtreat to make money off of procedures. It's difficult to align the incentives of profit and health.

    Limiting the life of patents would probably mostly discourage new drug development a little with little impact on costs. I can't think of many amazing new brand-name drugs that we need to get off-patent so that we can save people because the drug companies aren't innovating anyway. Exception to the lack of innovation is biologics (e.g. monoclonal antibodies), but those generally don't become generic so a patent isn't needed.

    The best solution for drug costs is single payer. A single buyer has the power to drive down costs. This is precisely why drugs are cheaper everywhere else. Another solution for both cost and lack of innovation would be to limit their advertising. America is one of the only places in the world where prescription drugs can be advertised directly to consumers, and as a result drug companies spend more on that than actual drug R&D. It's more reliably profitable to make something look good than to make something new.

    The biggest impact on innovation but not cost would be to require that they demonstrate superiority to existing therapy (for any population of patients) rather than merely superiority to placebo for a new patent. Also, drug research needs to be made more independent of the company with a stake in the research outcome results - we get too many biased studies done by the drug companies.

    Medicare? No, not medicare, though Medicare does better than our private insurance companies when Medicare is not being provided by private insurance companies (Medicare Advantage, Part D). I said the French earlier. The VA in America was also good for about 10 years before it became severely underfunded.

    Which doesn't tell me anything about whether those procedures were appopriate or not.

    The problem is that EMTALA only effectively applied to Emergency Departments, which are great for saving lives, but extremely inefficient as a primary source of care. I had no part in passing EMTALA.

    Medical tourism goes both ways and all over the place. America tends to have the most cutting edge, if not proven to be effective, techniques, but America is extremely expensive. There are other countries that also have cutting edge technology, again like France. It's about half as expensive to get the same procedure in Canada, but they do place limits on elective procedures. Britain and France have a similar arrangement as Canada and America do in terms of France importing British patients. Cuba is also a popular medical tourism destination for low cost at acceptable quality, attracting >20k patients per year.

    About 10 times as many people leave America to get care elsewhere, as come to America for care. I wish I could find something more recent but here's an example:

    750,000 left in 2007: http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/960/a-revolution-in-healthcare

    65-80k came here in 2007: http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/he..._avd_outsourcing08_0529healthoutsourcing.html
     
  17. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Live, I think the democommies have cut and ran
     
  18. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    If people want to opt out of a UHC that's their business. But to force Americans to pay for Israel's health coverage, to force taxpayers to pay for corporations which deduct expenses for such insurances thereby benefiting the rich, but to deny such coverage to those who are poor but who pay their taxes is the most supreme stupidity. It takes an idiotic RepubliCON traitor to defend it. The great irony being that these hate filled clowns call themselves "pro life".
     
  19. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    {{""If people want to opt out of a UHC that's their business"}}

    Except your loving Democommie in the White House will not let us if this goings into effect.

    {{""But to force Americans to pay for Israel's health coverage""}}

    This is the second time you have made this allegation now prove it.

    {{"" to force taxpayers to pay for corporations which deduct expenses for such insurances thereby benefiting the rich, ""}}

    Once more, nothing but silly allegations, where is your proof???

    {{""but to deny such coverage to those who are poor but who pay their taxes is the most supreme stupidity""}}

    Maybe you missed it but the government put out the figures the other day. the top 3% pay 97% of the personal taxes. 50% of the bottom households don't pay any taxes. Now what was that you saying about the "POOR" paying their taxes???

    Like I already said, after working for 51 years and never earning over $63,000 in one year, raising 6 children with a 9th grade education, being a one income household, how was I able provide health care for my family without the government help?? Do you think you might be able to figure a way to do it for yourself??? Do you think other "poor" people can figure out a way to do it for themselves??? If not, maybe we should shut down the schools after the kids get through the 9th grade, it would seem that the schools dumb them down after that.

    {{""It takes an idiotic RepubliCON traitor to defend it""}}

    And here we have another Democommie sitting behind a screen calling names. Like I said, I was able to do it, why can't you???

    {""The great irony being that these hate filled clowns call themselves "pro life".""}}

    And of course we have the "Pro choice" crowd responcible for more than 100,000,000 american lives up to now don't we.
     
  20. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    As you well know it is the $100+ multibillions given by Washington DC to Tel Aviv that has kept its economy going. Without those dollars, the government there would have gone bankrupt. In fact, previously you approved when you wrote:

    "the more Israelis we keep healthy the more Arabs they will kill"

    That's a fine statement made by a "pro lifer".

    A business can deduct medical insurance costs:

    http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=109807,00.html

    quote: ''you can deduct the ordinary and necessary cost of insurance as a business expense, if it is for your trade, business, or profession''

    Operating expenses are deductible as everybody in the accounting business knows. I used to work in that field for many years.


    We've gone over this on other threads - the fact remains that the wealthy shelter trillions overseas in tax free accounts while the middle class pay through the nose. This is a settled matter.

    You are the one who used the term "you idiots" and Democommie in your posts. Somehow when anyone else uses terms like that it is wrong but it is OK for you. Here is a quote from your earlier post:

    ''you IDIOTS want to push abortion ''

    see: http://www.politicalforum.com/healt...lth-care-all-americans-11.html#post1060917342




    Margaret Sanger was financed by RepubliCONS and the Supreme Court which approved of abortion was controlled by your fellow RepubliCONs.

    As for me, I have indicated several times previously that I oppose abortion unlike your pro death RepubliCON party.
     
  21. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    {{{""As you well know it is the $100+ multibillions given by Washington DC to Tel Aviv that has kept its economy going. Without those dollars, the government there would have gone bankrupt. In fact, previously you approved when you wrote""}}}

    I said prove we are paying the Israelis health care bill. Now prove it. The last time I looked Israel was one of the only countries that have paid our loans back.

    {{""That's a fine statement made by a "pro lifer".""}}

    http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/American-Victims-Palestinian-Attacks.htm

    I guess that makes you pro- death, right? Right!

    {{""A business can deduct medical insurance costs:""}}

    And I learned at an early age not to take a job with someone unless they offered medical insurance, that's a real hard conclusion to come to isn't it. I don't believe ANYONE should be forced to buy insurance but the companies that fail to offer it will come out on the short end of the stick when the economy picks back up.


    {{""Operating expenses are deductible as everybody in the accounting business knows. I used to work in that field for many years.""}}

    And you say you owned a business??? What would that have done to you??? The money has to be there in the first place before it can be paid and deducted. A lot of small business don't have that kind of money so you will break them and put who ever they employe on the unemployment rolls, WAY TO GOOO!!!

    {{"Margaret Sanger was financed by RepubliCONS and the Supreme Court which approved of abortion was controlled by your fellow RepubliCONs.""}}

    Margaret Sanger died in 1966, that was dead 7 years before Roe V. Wade ever came about. Now, She preached birth control, not abortion, do you know the difference??? On top of that show where and when the Repubs. supported her. Like I have said before, I'm use to the Democommies trying to turn history around and blame the Repubs. for what they, the Democommies in fact have done.
     
  22. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    When you started using " RepubliCONs""
    , I asked you if you wanted to play the name calling game and if you continued I would do the same. The term Democommie has been around a long time, go back to the 60's and you will find it was used then. Look it up on Wiki, who knows, you might be able to learn something for once.
    "
     
  23. beenthere

    beenthere Well-Known Member

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    {{""Medicare? No, not medicare, though Medicare does better than our private insurance companies when Medicare is not being provided by private insurance companies""}}

    Better than the insurance companies??? 90 billion paid out last year to fraudulent claims and you you think medicare is doing better??? More medical procedures denied than all the insurance companies combined and you say they are doing better??? Only having to pay 84% to the Doctors and hospitals that insurance companies have to pay and you say they are doing a better job??? I believe I would go back and do a little more rMore medical procedures denied reseach on the subject if I were you.
     
  24. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Loans and military aid are to different things. Israel's foreign debt is about $84 billion while the USA has given it over $100 billion. Without that money it would have gone bankrupt years ago and not paid for its universal health coverage.

    [II] "pro- death" - Republicans are pro death. Stay out of that part of the world and we'll have no such problems. After all your friends in Israel killed are more of them than anyone else.

    [III] I was in the tax field both in government and private industry. Not personal business. Look up the tax code for further details on deductions.

    [IV] Re your heroine Sanger, see my posts about Rockefeller, Bush, and Gamble - all Republicans who financed her. This is documented FACT.

    [V] "Democommies" - once again you condemn others for ''name calling'' but keep repeating the same hate filled name calling nonsense. Stop being a hypocrite.
     
  25. constructionguy

    constructionguy New Member

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    Creating science to compliment a cause, just like GW.

    "Public Good, Equal outcomes," all B.S. for the lazy to take away from those who bust their arse every day. You can sight studies all you want, truth is those studies are bought and paid for. Human nature of itself is not full of equality, or equal anything.

    Lost productivity from poor health ? Your joking I hope. If you really think that if 100% of the work force had better health, that somehow prices would come down and productivety go up, keep dreaming. Oh....but China.....yeah,well we aren't China. But Canada.....yeah, well we aren't Canada either. I have friends and family in Canada and they are not fond of their HC system. Hip replacement.....waited 2.5 years. The only thing it's good for is preventative care, not if god forbid you actually needed surgery. Plus it's not free. A case of beer can cost 50 bucks. Gee, I want that here....no thanks.

    Seems to me your either afraid to adress the real issues of why a market based HC system costs so much or your just too lazy to take care of yourself and your family. Life after college for some of you is going to be a shock because you'll realize all that dribble that was spoon fed to you by your professors was bull crap.
     

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