Reasons for Apartheid: From a White South African

Discussion in 'Civil Rights' started by Polar Bear, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear New Member

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    "White guilt aid" is the only thing keeping Africa afloat, but all this aid does is perpetuate Africa's ridiculously high birth rates. For centuries mother nature (disease, starvation, infant mortality, etc.) was the only force keeping Africa's population levels at a somewhat manageable level. Now with Western medicine, food, and water wells being drilled everywhere, Africa's population is exploding at unsustainable levels, and without the natural attrition (disease, starvation, infant mortality, etc.) that used to keep population growth in check.
     
  2. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    Then give these facts polar bear. You keep talking about them, but fail to mention them. Include little facts like he highest economic growth since the Golden era of the 60's when the Gold price was extremely high. Also, in your 'facts' mention how well we came through the last recession, due to very smart laws made by the government that prevented a melt down as was experienced in other, richer countries. Include how even I as a white man has more rights now than during Apartheid. Oh, and be sure, for your facts, to quote from our fantastic constitution and Bill of Rights.

    Saying you have facts mean nothing, you have to actually give them you know. You have also still failed to attempt to counter any of the facts I have given, *yawn*

    And then just a little something from one of your previous 'posts'. I have spilled my blood for this country, so there is another little one of your pre-conceived ideas gone. Also, these terrorists which you talk about, which white soldiers, according to you, protected me from, were protecting their families from the white police, who was indeed killing them, but this does not fit in with your ideas, does it?

    And you are yet again confusing South Africa with Zimbabwe it seems. We never had a bush war in SA (one of the reasons the ANC mentions for their very failed militant campaign, as we are way to developed to have a bush war) that was Zimbabwe and Mozambique. SA's so-called bush war, more commonly described as the Border War, was fought on the border between Namibia, illegally ran by SA, and Angola, and it was fought to help Angolan rebels (they are not called terrorists if the Americans approved of them you see) against the Angolan government, and had nothing to do with protecting me. As a matter of fact (you now facts, those things you never use) most white South Africans can still not forgive the Voster and Botha governments for sacrificing our sons fighting in a war that had nothing to do with us. we see it as our Vietnam.

    You should really read a bit before you post, I think.

    I am proud to be a white South African. I am proud to be part of the new South Africa. I am proud I got through the propaganda and brain washing the Nationalists subjected me to as a child, and saw the truth. And I am mostly proud that the majority of White South Africans feel like I do, Something else you have to deal with I guess.

    Now it is your turn to post. Will you try and counter any thing I said? Will you use facts? Will you get your countries right this time? Let us wait and see.

    AH
     
  3. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    well ... sometimes I do ....

    because race isn't that clearly defined, and also, the differences within "races" are as great as the differences between "races."

    if we are going to use appearance to define race, it gets pretty tricky.

    what races do you think these women are?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    just wanted to try first one african, second asian, third white, fourth spanish or arab?
     
  5. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    third is Arab, fourth is European. the other two you got - but the girl at top actually looks like my daughter's friend who is Indonesian.

    so it really isn't always that easy to tell.... oh and my daughter who is of Irish/Scottish descent has been mistaken for Arab, Turkish, Spanish ... and south east asian when she has a tan.
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    First Caucasian probably from the Mediterranean upper Africa area.
    Second probably Mongoloid
    Third and Fourth Caucasian

    Hard to tell with all the make-up
     
  7. brown_ca

    brown_ca New Member

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    You make the statement that you have more freedom today than you did under apartheid, what does that mean? As a white person in South Africa during apartheid, you had no restrictions on your freedoms that I was aware of. I don’t want to contradict any statement you make, as a Canadian who lived in Johannesburg for a short time (3 years 1974-1977), I don’t pretend to know the struggle the people of South Africa went through, but I do know that my relatives who lived there during apartheid (all white) had a very good life, came and went as they pleased, lived in very nice houses and had no fear of home based crime (let alone rape and murder) that we hear about today.

    I can understand the support for the end of apartheid, as the idea of oppression based on race (or any other reason for that matter) is not acceptable to me or most people that I associate with. As I said, I do live in Canada, I own a farm (with no concern of it being taken over by anyone), have many friends from all cultures (couldn’t even tell you what religion they believe in or practice as it is just not important enough to base a friendship on) and basically live a relatively safe life that Canada offers. However as a white guy living in South Africa, I fail to see how it can be better for you now than it was then? Back then we (my family) did our shopping in the Hillbrow area, dined in the revolving restaurant in the tower, went to the park and war museum, stayed at the Carlton Hotel, shopped at the Carlton Center, went up "Panarama 50" and attended all the attractions Johannesburg had to offer.

    Today you couldn’t pay me to walk anywhere in the Hillbrow area as it has the highest crime rate in Johannesburg and that is saying something, the Carlton Center is non existent as well as the Carlton Hotel from what I am told (I know one of the arguments is progress and that other newer centers have been built, but progress does not result in decay and deterioration of society). The revolving restaurant is no more due to concerns of it being blown up in the 90’s. The Rand, which was a solid form of currency back in the 70's and 80's is a ghost of what it once was in the way of "buying power".

    So as a white guy living in South Africa today, how can you make a statement that you have more freedom? Or even elude that you are better off today than in the past? What are you referring to in that statement? I truly am curious.
     
  8. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    I am no way comparing a white person's restrictions with that of Black South Africans, but white South Africans now have so many more freedoms than during apartheid. What follows here will not be a full list, but what I can think of just of the top of my head. I will list them as tings I can now do, thus obviously meaning I could not do these things during apartheid:

    I can have sex, fall in love and marry who I want to
    I can live where I want to
    I read what ever magazines and books I want to
    I now have access to free press
    I can watch what movies I want to
    I can mingle with people of other races without fear of the Security Police knocking on my door.
    I can be openly homosexual if I want to
    I can be part of any group, organisation or sports team I want to.

    These are but a few examples of things I can do now that even as a white South African I could not do during apartheid.

    I was also subjected to a very suppressive school system. There was no real freedom of religion. Propaganda was part of our every day lives. My father was once during the early 80's detained for more than 48 hours, and subjected to interrogation, because he happened to stay in the same hotel as an ANC person whilst on business in London (the company booked him into the hotel, and he never even knew who this person was!). I have a friend who (we had conscription for white men in those days) when the SADF found out he was homosexual, was sent to the military hospital, where he was subjected to shock therapy to 'cure' him.

    Again, I had it easy compared to black South Africans, I will never imply differently, but it is important to remember that there was no Bill of Rights in the old SA, not even for whites. No Freedom of Movement, no Freedom of association, or any other of those freedoms so important to us.

    This is why I say tat I, as a white South African, have more rights now than ever before.

    AH
     
  9. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    Oh, and about Hillbrow, this is true, and is true for many inner cities in the World. I am still free however o go out at night, dine in fine restaurants, and do all the things you mention, with all other South Africans, so I do not quite catch your meaning, as I can still do these things. I also visit the inner city of Durban, where I live very regularly.

    On the economy - We have been having our highest growth rate in years, only outdone by the golden years (due to gold) of the 60's. We got through the world economic crisis better than most Developed nations, with not one bank or big company going under.

    And the Rand. We are trying to keep the value low on purpose, it is the (correct) policy of our Reserve Bank. As we are a Developing nation, we have to compete against countries that can afford trade barriers, subsidies and so forth. A High rand makes it difficult for is to compete against other nations, which is why we try and find (with some success) a balance between to high and too low. As a matter of fact one of the problems according to our big economists and business leaders is that the Rand was too strong this year.

    So I also don't quit catch the economic points you mention.

    AH
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear New Member

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    You know the reason black wages were artificially low pre-1994 was because it kept more blacks working and out of unemployment. There was (and is) a finite number of jobs South Africa can ever provide. Your unemployment officially is 25% but most banks and ratings agencies peg it at 40-50%. The problem is that South Africa has too many....well...you guessed it.
     
  11. brown_ca

    brown_ca New Member

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    These are things I truly did not think of. One thing jumping to mind is our arrival in SA, my dad had an adult magazine, so I was told (Playboy) in the seat pocket of the plane, he had bought it in London and I remember a man in uniform coming up to him and advising him to leave his magazine on the aircraft.

    As I said before, we were only there for a short time and I was shielded somewhat from the politics at the time, I attended St. Johns in Houghton (prep) and at the time I did not think anything was abnormal, it was only as I got a bit older that I realized that not only was it an all boys school, it was also all white ("European" if I remember correctly from the city benches).

    I mentioned the value of the Rand and the decay of parts of the city only to try and understand how you see it as being better off. I do understand now, thank you.

    Have a great and safe New-Year
     
  12. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    Oh, so why was white wages kept artificially high? Please tell me. Or do you think all whites have high skilled jobs? Whit laborers where paid so much more than black laborers, so that sort of shoots that idea of yours out of the water too, it seems. Black wages were kept low for one reason and one reason only, because they where black laborers. That was one of the main election promises of the Nationalists that gave them the election in 1948.

    And what do we have too many of? People? Maybe. Unemployment in this country is for many reasons. For instance both the old and the current government relied too much on primary industries (mining, agriculture, each) and never did enough too develop our industries. If he Nats used the golden age of the 60's to build plants to develop our ability to transform our own metals into useful products, things would be different. And if the ANC used the euforia from foreign investors in the late 90's for the same, things would be different.

    Also, both the old and the new governments look too much at Government to create jobs, and not at the private sector. Both Apartheid South Africa and current South Africa have bloated government departments, and I agree there is only a finite number of government jobs that can be created.

    Also, legacies take a long time to eradicate. A very large part of our population currently had to go to overcrowded, low quality schools, where they where only taught certain subjects that the Apartheid government thought they needed. Very few qualified to go to the way too few also lower quality universities open to black, coloured and Indian universities to further their studies.

    That means we have a lot of people in SA who have low levels of schooling, literacy each, and therefore there are limited amount of jobs they can do. The facts is that with our high unemployment rate, we also have a huge problem with skilled jobs that we can not fill, because we never used our full potential in this nation.

    Now, it is the unfortunate fact that the current ANC government tackled this problem in an ineffective manner, and it could have been handled better, but we can not ignore the legacy.

    AH
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear New Member

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    At least the Zuma-approved ones...

    South Africa's free press is routinely censored by the Zuma ANC. Censorship is so great, your famous cartoonist Zapiro was once sued by Zuma and threatened with jail time for drawing unflattering pictures of Zuma, most notably with a showerhead attached to the back his head. SA has become a true banana republic when you look at the rainbow nation's levels of media censorship.

    No, once again you are wrong. The ANC gubbmint forces any new start up business to enroll in and claim to support Black Economic Empowerment. Even if you don't "participate" in BEE, which could have disastrous effects on your business, you are required to support its principles in your charter.

    How is forcing onto an ethnic minority, white South Africans, a state sponsored racism program, or racial spoils system, a good thing? Especially one that openly discriminates against said minority. The whole BEE system is so laughable, it is no different than forcing Jews to register at the local ghetto in 1930s Poland. How does this make the current South Africa better than the previous one?

    .
     
  14. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    No. I read all magazines and newspapers I want. Most of them are critical of President Zuma. Noy, you really really do not do research do you? And yes, Zuma is suing Zapiro, as is every private citizens right. He feels he was insulted, and this country, as in yours, it is your right to sue someone you feel has insulted you. Jail time? Nope. And Zapiro still continuesto draw the president with his shower head, so actually, thank you for giving proof of how we have freedom of press and speech in SA.

    And on your last point, you fail to talk about how I can belong to any group, organisation or sports team I want to, and go on about Affirmative action, which most countries have, btw. And boy, you again did no research on BEE did you. I really urge you to do some reading before you post.

    AH
     
  15. africanhope

    africanhope New Member

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    No. I read all magazines and newspapers I want. Most of them are critical of President Zuma. Noy, you really really do not do research do you? And yes, Zuma is suing Zapiro, as is every private citizens right. He feels he was insulted, and this country, as in yours, it is your right to sue someone you feel has insulted you. Jail time? Nope. And Zapiro still continuesto draw the president with his shower head, so actually, thank you for giving proof of how we have freedom of press and speech in SA.

    And on your last point, you fail to talk about how I can belong to any group, organisation or sports team I want to, and go on about Affirmative action, which most countries have, btw. And boy, you again did no research on BEE did you. I really urge you to do some reading before you post.

    AH
     
  16. stig42

    stig42 New Member

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    And if they slashed white wages to Mach then maybe that would be more then selfish racism and greed
     
  17. stig42

    stig42 New Member

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    Most of my friends have not been white iv worked for and with people who are not white i don’t need some all-white state run by racist creeps
     
  18. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    you'd have to wonder what is going on in people's heads for them to think it is even desirable.
     
  19. urbanwarzone

    urbanwarzone New Member

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    what interests me about these posts and the internet in general is that anyone can be a keyboard commando and make racist statements and say blacks are bad but would you ever say that to there face? What you dont realise is racism is ignorance. To say group of people are all the same is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Instead of fighting amounst our selves about tribal issues we should be mad and fighting the gloabalists and the power elite trying to enslave ALL of us, but even after saying that all most will care about is race. God Help us.
     
  20. stig42

    stig42 New Member

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    To be fair I don’t tell racist they have their heads planted firmly up their own ass to their face either
     
  21. urbanwarzone

    urbanwarzone New Member

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  22. cassandrabandra

    cassandrabandra New Member

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    racism is also based on fear and insecurity.

    if you feel insecure within yourself, you are more likely to feel threatened by someone you perceive as different.

    fear combined with ignorance can be extremely dangerous.
     
  23. BoiaChiMolla

    BoiaChiMolla New Member

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    Apartheid should be a great solution for mass immigration, they would destroy part of the country, but at least not the culture or the people.
     
  24. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  25. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Banned

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    Swapo ? Zanu ??
     

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