Discussion regarding abortion in cases of birth defects

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Junkieturtle, May 3, 2012.

  1. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I know I am, and if I ever forget, I can check my driver's license.

    Regarding the issue at hand though, determining the quality of life of a fetus is no one's right except the mother's. I do not advocate making this decision for anyone, and explicitly said so in my OP, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read. I have not advocated eliminating the right's of anyone.

    And yes, in cases of severe birth defects, I consider having an abortion to be a merciful thing to do. I know it seems unfathomable to you that someone that has to live their life in those cases may not be happy and cheery or take comfort from being the inspiration to normal people everywhere you think they are, but it's very likely true. I can't say for sure that it is in all cases, and that is precisely why I made this thread. I do not make the claim that I have the power to judge someone's quality of life and determine where the line is between what is good and what is bad, and if we're talking about a situation where the person is already born, it's completely irrelevant at that point anyhow. You can't have an abortion once you've given birth. If we're talking about a mother who has been informed that her child will suffer from birth defects if allowed to be born, are you going to tell that mother that she shouldn't consider the quality of life her fetus will have? That she has to choose life regardless of the condition her child will be forced by genetics to live with for the rest of it's life, no matter what their impact on living day-to-day is? I don't advocate that.

    In these cases, I think the doctor needs to stress the complications and factors that will affect the child once it's born. It's ultimately the mother who has to make up her mind, but just like you pro-lifers think women should be shown ultrasounds and have invasive unnecessary procedures, women carrying a damaged fetus ought to be made explicitly aware of the consequences of that as well.
     
  2. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to this study, 92% of the women who get a diagnosis of Downs Syndrome choose to abort.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...99909)19:9<808::AID-PD637>3.0.CO;2-B/abstract

    92%. Clearly, it's not just the evil pro-aborts doing it -- most of those moralizing pro-lifers are aborting as well. When push comes to shove, almost everyone is aborting a Down's Syndrome fetus. Society has overwhelmingly said it's acceptible.

    This seems right, since the numbers of retarded people I see around are less than they were when I was young. Not everyone gets prenatal screening, so in effect about half of Downs pregnancies end up aborted.
     
  3. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh, word play again. *sigh* Okay, just because I don't feel like turning this thread into every other abortion thread, I'll just say that it's both.

    I'm not sure what you mean here. I do think about it, quite a bit actually since I see those children just about every morning. I started this thread.

    Yep, I hate human life. You nailed it.

    Is that all you've got? Seriously?
     
  4. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Junkieturtle said,


    You want no legal protection for the life in the womb. I do not believe any pregnant women has the right to decide the quality of the life she is carrying. What you say here is not true. You are pro-abortion which means you deny the rights of the life….and put the mothers before theirs.



    Mericiful you say?…..I can only imagine what that might also mean to you aside from abortion. I don't want to know. I think it would be merciful if all abortion doctors would be eliminated….look at the lives saved. Their quality of life is horrible…killing humans everyday…lets put them out of their misery, right? Was it merciful that Tiller was murdered….some say yes. What do you say? ARe they wrong?
    What is merciful to you might not be for another person…are you tolerant enough to accept what I think is merciful? Or don't I have that right? You seem to think you do.

    You do draw the line….rather you paint a black bullseye on every unborn in the womb. You just in this thread came up with yet another reason to justify why you think the unborn should die.

    In these cases, I think the doctor needs to stress the complications and factors that will affect the child once it's born. It's ultimately the mother who has to make up her mind, but just like you pro-lifers think women should be shown ultrasounds and have invasive unnecessary procedures, women carrying a damaged fetus ought to be made explicitly aware of the consequences of that as well.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    mammoth said,

    That is tragic. I wonder if they give stats on how many really didn't have Downs and were aborted. I know several people who were told their child had Downs and were born fine.

    People today want perfect. Hell there was a women in England that aborted a child because she found out it had lip abnormalities. But to a pro-abort&#8230;.this shouldn't matter&#8230;..kill no matter what.



    Who ever said that? LMAO I have said over and over that the majority of women getting abortions claim to be Christian&#8230;.so don't even go there. Morals&#8230;what would you know about morals? So if society says rape is acceptable&#8230;.or child porn&#8230;.would you agree? Oh yes&#8230;.i would imagine you would. LOL


    Retarded? The way you put things is vile. I feel so so sorry for you&#8230;.living in a world that is just impossible to live in. Wanting everything perfect&#8230;how superficial is that? I would much rather spend time&#8230;.with a "retarded" person as you call them&#8230;then spend it with people who share your position on life.
     
  6. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    There are other threads available for you to repeat yourself in. I specifically said that this thread was not about abortion in general and whether or not it should be legal. If that's what you want to argue, there are plenty of other threads for that. In fact, I put that disclaimer in specifically because I knew I would end up having to say this exact thing to you.

    There is nothing that you've said here that has anything to do with a woman considering abortion after discovering the presence of one or more birth defects. I have shown no fear of discussing the legality and morality of abortion with you in threads dealing with those issues, but this is not one of those threads. Since you're repeating yourself anyway, can we do it in another thread?

    It would be amusing to me that you think I "paint a black bullseye on every unborn in the womb" if I didn't think you were convinced I actually do believe that. So instead, it's just sad that you do.
     
  7. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    The word play was instigated by the pro-death crowd before you were born. I'm just exposing it for what it is. You're welcome.

    Too bad you never see the unborn children who are murdered by people who think like you.

    You said it, I didn't.

    Even if it is, it's obviously way more than you can handle.
     
  8. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    You say I am not on topic….ok I will go over everything you said in the first post you made.


    Abortion is wrong in every circumstance even for birth defects. You are killing a living human being you should not have the right to kill. No different than killing a child who is just not wanted by his mother. This should make no difference for you because the mother has the right to kill. Why are you even addressing this? You are pro-choice.

    If the child has birth defects…….abortion should still not be allowed. A life is a life……no matter what condition the unborn is in.

    So what do you want to discuss? I am against abortion….so you tell me? What are pro-lifers supposed to say? You say its the woman's right….I don't. What does birth defects have to do with this?

    Well that is a no brainer….for crying out loud. You are also for abortion in every other circumstance….so why single defects out? I mean come on…..Now your saying…hey mom and dad….your kid has a birth defect you should kill it….even if they want it. You just hate kids don't ya?



    And I just bet you look at them with disgust and it makes your stomach turn doesn't it? Do they repulse you…the ones that might drool, or make funny noises? I hope to heck that nothing happens to a member of your family or someone close….that might suffer something like this, through an accident or some health issue. Would you leave them? Keep them at home so no one would know they exist? What would you do? Would you move to Oregon where you might have a better chance of letting them die through assisted suicide? I am sure you would not waste your time doing anything with them….according to you they just don't deserve or could not possibly have any quality of life. You never see beauty in just simple things do you?


    For people like you these kinds of human beings are a bother….you simply could never take care or enjoy or nurture one that is for sure. You see no reason for them to live…and I find even more than your position on abortion…your attitude on this the saddest. My brother in law is mentally handicapped. He has taught our family more lessons about love than anyone I have ever known. You could simply never comprehend this kind of love and joy…that is sad. I feel so so sorry for you.


    Termination…..there is that word again…..KILL that word you don't have the guts to say. Or do you….lets hear it. Write the same sentence and use kill, I dare ya?

    For you honey,,,,it would save you embarrassment….because any child less than perfect you would you could not accept. No its not for the child you would want it killed…it would be for you….so you would not be bothered.
     
  9. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    So what (*)(*)(*)(*)ing sin did the women of today commit? Or is your God just a vicious harpy who would punish generations of women for the actions of ONE woman?

    You didn't read her post. Read it again.

    So what? Its a life dependent on another person. It has less value than the host.

    Its is selfish to EXPECT your wife to bend over backwards and care for you 24/7 while she also cares for your children. If she chooses to do it willingly, fine, but when you EXPECT her to do that, and DEMAND it of her, then that IS selfish.

    But YOU did, yet you sit here and judge others for their choices.
     
  10. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Believe what you want; fortunately, the First Amendment prohibits you from forcing your dogma on everyone. That is the concept of separation of church and state.
     
  11. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, but I wanted to get a sense on where people stood in the more extenuating circumstances. I don't have statistics handy, but I would be willing to bet there are more cases of birth defects being present than cases of pregnancy due to rape.

    It has a lot to do with it, because it's a new angle that the mother has to consider. A woman who has no problem with getting an abortion in the first place probably isn't going to have much of a problem getting one if birth defects were confirmed. I was more interested in getting opinions from people who are on the fence about abortion.

    No, I like kids, and I don't like seeing them living with the insane things that can happen during fetal development. I don't look at them as being an "inspiration" because that's almost demeaning. "Hey man, I realize your life is probably very difficult, and there's nothing that can be done about it, but, gosh, thanks for being an inspiration to us healthy normal people." I truly do think about what their life must be like, more than I do about the lives of the people who have to care for them.


    I did not say they don't deserve anything, or that they could not possibly have quality of life. I also said that once a person is born, it doesn't matter anymore, nor would any of this talk apply to someone that became handicapped after birth. Are you able to talk about this without being hysterical?

    Here again, he has taught YOU. What is life like for him? Are you concerned with whether he enjoys his life, what HIS quality of life is. I realize he's an inspiration to you, but what about HIM? Do you think he takes comfort in his handicap because he's inspiring other non-handicapped people? Some might, sure, I have no idea.

    I won't be having any more children so this isn't even an issue I have any fear of dealing with or being in. No child is perfect. Not a single one. They are human, and flawed, just like the rest of us adults. And THAT'S perfectly okay. But nowhere, not one single time, did you ever mention the quality of life for the person involved, only for those around them, not even when it came to your own brother-in-law. That was where the heart of my question was. Is anyone concerned for what those children might be going through, or are do you all just puff up your chests and talk about inspirations. Wonderful. So these children are walking Hallmark cards to you. Nice.
     
  12. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This constant effort you expend to hate must leave you totally spent.

    Given that I haven't spent months deliberately lying over and over on the Sanger thread, clearly I know far more than you. You haven't even gotten the "lying is wrong" thing down.

    That's your philosophy. When your cult says it's justifiable to lie, you lie. Your cult said slavery was justifiable, so your type supported it back then. Your cult says slavery of women is a good thing now, so you support that. You auto-embrace whatever position your cult has flipflopped to at the moment.

    Spare me the liberal PC whining. "Retarded" is a fine word.

    Given I never said or implied such any such thing, you appear to just be making stuff up about me. But then, it's not like you've ever been able to address what anyone actually says, so your only option is to make things up.

    For their sake, I hope you aren't actually torturing them with your presence.
     
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  13. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    mammoth said,

    Actually no&#8230;and I don't hate anyone here. I feel sorry for them, that the hatred they have for life is leashed against something so innocent as the unborn.



    And what do you know&#8230;..please enlighten us all. LOL

    And I did not lie or post anything on any thread that was not documented or the truth.


    Lie? LOL Cult? So a pagan tells me I am in a cult? yea ok&#8230;&#8230;.

    My position says&#8230;it is not right or justifiable to kill a living, an innocent HUMAN BEING. You can't grasp that can you? A life being torn apart alive&#8230;in the womb&#8230;.is nothing to you. A nine month old child&#8230;..viable&#8230;..a six month old child viable&#8230;&#8230;being killed&#8230;slaughtered because you are so pro-womans rights that the life of another trumps another life. And you tell me I am horrible? LMAO

    The thing that is frustrating for your side is that we don't flip on anything. We stand on life even most people do for the case of rape. You can't imagine that&#8230;Your side flip flops on everything. Here I will show you.

    1st Pro-choicer. I am pro-womens rights&#8230;.it is a personal decision that only she can make. Oh&#8230;.but she loses those rights somewhere between ????? weeks and ?????? when life is viable&#8230;.so I am not for late term abortion.

    2nd pro-choicer I am pro-womans rights. It is a personal decision and the woman should be able to abort anytime time&#8230;even if its the ninth month. Its not a human being&#8230;.

    3rd pro-choicer I am pro-womans rights. It is a personal decision and the woman should only be able to abort during the first three months.

    So prochoicers give the power to the woman&#8230;.THEN THEY ENSLAVE HER BY DENYING HER THE RIGHT TO KILL.

    You guys are all over the place&#8230;.not consistent with your position.


    Is the N word acceptable anymore? No one calls them retarded anymore. They are mentally challenged.

    And your the one into torture&#8230;..your pro-abortion. Do tell me what that procedure is like&#8230;...
     
  14. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what a marriage is Makedde? <<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC/INSULT >>>

    The whole point of a marriage is to bend over backwards for your spouse. What do you think "in sickness & in health, for richer or for poorer, till death do you part" means????? A marriage is suppose to be selfless. A husband or a wife should expect their spouse to be there for them, especially in bad times. That is where you find out if you have any character, integrity, loyalty, and dignity.

    That comment above was about the dumbest comment I have ever read in my life. Nobody is ordering anybody else around in a marriage, so quit adding stupid ass nonsense to your arguement. There is no victim here Makedde, so quit tryin to create one to bolster your dumbass argument.

    <<< MODERATOR EDIT: OFF TOPIC/INSULT >>>
     
  15. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    [/QUOTE]


    Prove that boldened statement isn't true.
     
  16. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Another retarded comment. Are you married? Do you order your spouse around like a slave? No??? Then why are we trying to discuss stupidity?
     
  17. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes I am married, and no I do not order my wife around, but the only stupidity I see is your refusal to believe that different situations can and do exist. One way to know that is true is to look at the amount of domestic abuse that occurs on a regular basis in this country.
     
  18. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    How in God's name did this get turned into "domestic abuse"?....lmao???????

    You guys can't back up anything you say, so you try to spin it off into some weird issue that we aren't even talkin about...lol.

    Y'all have ADD or something?....lol.
     
  19. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    If I recall, you were the one who brought up this very subject barely 10 minutes ago...it got turned into "domestic abuse" because you starkly refused to believe that any marriage could be anything but serene and equal between both partners in your reply to Makedde.
     
  20. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Jee wiz. Why do I always feel like I have to hold someone's hand through a discussion?

    I didn't bring up domestic abuse.

    Our local Site Moderator, Makedde did b/c she can't argue a rational point if her life depended on it. My comment from 10 minutes ago, had you read the whole thing, starting with the comment I quoted, you would have realized she brought it up, which I pretty much took to the woodshed out back.
     
  21. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, I did read her comment(in your quote AND the original comment when she posted it) and your reply to it. I somewhat agreed with her comment because I know there are marriages that are like that. I disagreed with yours on the basis that you did not allow room for marriages that don't operate in a serene and equal manner, of which a percentage do not.
     
  22. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    TheHat said,

    It is through the good times and mainly the bad…because there is no such thing as a marriage without bad stuff. Its self sacrifice even though you don't want to do it. And marriage if its based on love….is serving. Serving your spouse…because you love them. And its submitting not in a slave like position but one of compromise. People marry today and think its all lovey dove stuff….when in reality that kind of love wears off…and grows deeper.


    If you love someone you don't have to order them around.
     
  23. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you're compromising on marriage, you must not be too sure of it hun. If you're compromising with your spouse, you must not love them as much as you think you do. Or so your logic on compromises must tell you. Also, if you tell me it's a different situation, that will make you a relativist, and we both know you're not one of those.
     
  24. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Not compromising about my husband&#8230;.about issues. I have been married 32 years&#8230;&#8230;we are doing something right.
     
  25. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    So marriage means sacrificing your own happiness and retirement years to be a full time carer for a spouse who can't even use the toilet without help? Marriage means BOTH parties are happy. If one isn't, if one is expected to be a slave, that isn't happiness.
    If my husband were like that, he'd be in a home, with carers who are experienced. I'd visit him, but I wouldn't be his full time carer.

    I know, that makes me a horrible person, doesn't it?
     
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