It's over in Afghanistan!

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by skeptic-f, Feb 22, 2012.

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  1. skeptic-f

    skeptic-f New Member

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    It is now officially time for the USA to leave Afghanistan with our tail between our legs. An act of incredible stupidity has irretrievably damaged our reputation with the ordinary Afghan and allowed their natural xenophobia to kick in.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/22/us-afghanistan-korans-idUSTRE81K09T20120222

    Apparently, the clothes and personal possessions of dead insurgents were dumped in a skip and burned at the Bagram military base, WITHOUT BOTHERING TO SEPARATE OUT THE KORANS that some insurgents were carrying. The U.S. military can say this was an "inadvertent mistake" but if American personnel had found bibles on dead insurgents in some third world nation they would have taken them out of the "to burn" pile. The subsequent rioting has already seen foreigners beaten (almost all non-American) and at least six Afghan civilians killed.

    Given that the Arabic Koran is seen as the literal "word of God", burning a Koran is actually worse than burning a bible (more like burning a bible in church) and your average Afghan is a pretty backward guy to begin with. As of now, the name "American" is now synonymous with "Christian s - - t" in Afghanistan and we will NEVER be able to change it back. Let's get out now, before the Taliban recruitment drive that's probably already started is finished and we find ourselves with greatly increased casualty rates.
     
  2. sherp

    sherp New Member

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    Does anyone care about the Afghan Barbarians??? :blahblah::blahblah::blahblah:
     
  3. Serfin' USA

    Serfin' USA Well-Known Member

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    I'd like us to get out of there, but not for this reason.

    Honestly, the more we coddle Muslims over this ridiculous amount of sensitivity over the Koran, the more it encourages them to be anal about things.

    Seriously, we were able to calm Christians down over the years by making them used to getting offended. Evangelicals still occasionally freak out over things, but for the most part, they don't take things as seriously as many Muslims do.

    And, to be fair, the same can be applied to any group, including atheists, blacks, and gays.

    I'm not saying people should be overly offensive to any particular group, but a certain amount of offensiveness in every direction is necessary to give everyone a little thicker skin.

    It's like all of the coddling after the Mohammed cartoons. Instead of the apologizing, it would have been better if these societies had just said, "get the (*)(*)(*)(*) over it, you whiny pricks."

    We should say that to a lot of groups -- whether they're left wing or right wing.
     
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  4. Ex-lib

    Ex-lib Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Americans in Afghanistan NEVER have to leave with their tail between their legs. We are a good people. Get a clue. And get some self-esteem while you're at it.

    A simple "I'm sorry about burning your books" is all that's necessary. Any more to this issue than that just underscores the delusion of Muslims who worry about a book being destroyed. The word of God has nothing to do with ANY book. The word of God is mental. That was Jesus' entire point. Maybe Mohammed's too, if he was smart enough.
     
  5. Ex-lib

    Ex-lib Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yup. Yup. Yup.
     
  6. skeptic-f

    skeptic-f New Member

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    So a foreign military which is mostly Muslim comes to your state, and is fighting fundamentalist totalitarian Christians (cultist Baptists?) and occasionally generating civilian casualties. You may approve of the fight against the cultists, but would you approve of the possessions of the insurgents (including a number of bibles) being burned in a trash incinerator? Now, adding in the fact that such an act is MORE offensive to a Muslim, imagine the stuff being placed in an old church and then burning everything. That's why the Afghans are upset.
     
  7. Big George

    Big George Banned

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    So let me guess... The idiot radical Muslims are offended about something, so in order to prove that they are the Religion of Peace, the literally go on a bloodthirsty rampage.

    Brilliant. :roll:
     
  8. philxx

    philxx New Member

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    hey whatif someone threw the american constitution on a fire something different label,
     
  9. kenrichaed

    kenrichaed Banned

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    Are you honestly concerned with what a bunch of sheep herders think of you?
     
  10. Beevee

    Beevee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I might agree with you if it was an isolated incident, but it isn't.

    These problems, in various guises reappear on a regular basis and if the US wants to convince the world that America is not like that, the troops should not be like that. But they are.

    The US military is spread more than halfway round the world. Incidents don't occur in 99% of those countries, so why should they happen in the other 1%. It seems to me that troops are advised of the do's and don'ts yet (*)(*)(*)(*) continues to happen.

    Why?
     
  11. Serfin' USA

    Serfin' USA Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you're getting our point here.

    The fact that Muslims find it more offensive is indication of a lack of social development. A reasonable person doesn't attach that much meaning to a mere book. Even most Christians aren't as sensitive about the Bible, but it wasn't always that way.

    It took centuries of cultural development for most Christian societies to become rational enough to view things as they do now. Unfortunately, Islam has had less time to develop, but the only hope it has for developing in a more rational direction is for them to understand that their reactions aren't reasonable.

    They must be faced with a certain amount of offense to evolve past this sensitivity.
     
  12. Serfin' USA

    Serfin' USA Well-Known Member

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    I'd say we're actually too politically correct already.

    Entering both Iraq and Afghanistan was probably a mistake to begin with, but ever since we did, we tried to fight a politically correct war in each.

    Even though we have the world's most powerful military, we aren't really feared as such because of this. The whole "hearts and minds" thing looks good on paper, but it's not very practical. War isn't about that. It's about kill or be killed.

    You have to dominate an area to effectively rule it. If you look throughout Islamic history, you see the same thing. You have to be feared to effectively rule the Middle East in general and much of South Asia as well.

    It's not until an area reaches a certain level of cultural development that you can actually rule in ways that we do in the First World.

    This is why we're not good occupiers and why the criticisms from our peers during this process are unrealistic. We're used to viewing things from the perspective of highly educated people with a high standard of living. Clearly, there's a huge difference in the level of development we've reached vs. theirs.

    As a result, they have to rule much more harshly. As (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up as the Taliban was, their harshness was necessary for rule there. As (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up as Saddam was, he did the same for Iraq.

    Spreading democracy sounds nice, but in reality, a society isn't really ready for it until it reaches a certain level of education and prosperity. Preceding that, more authoritarian rule is necessary for advancement.

    It's not a pretty thought, but it's supported by historical precedent.

    It took most of Europe a long time to reach the Enlightenment era, for example. Before that, things were pretty authoritarian and tradition bound. The average person was pretty poor as well.

    So, in summary, a First World nation really shouldn't be engaging in nation building in the developing world, because it doesn't have the heart or stomach to do the necessary dirty work.

    If you think what we're doing now is bad, we'd have to be a lot more harsh to suitably run these countries. When we mostly leave both of these countries, you'll see the swing toward authoritarianism again, out of necessity.

    It's like how the Arab Spring is. People thought that was about freedom. It's not. It's about the majority getting sick of the current oppressors and looking to install new ones that focus more on oppressing minorities or just groups they have grievances with.

    It's an ugly business, but it's just how humanity is until becoming more advanced.
     
  13. Tyrerik

    Tyrerik New Member

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    This sounds a bit too much like a Taliban PR stunt. If parched, recognisable remains of Qurans have been found then it doesn't say much for the incineration process.

    If Qurans are to be treasured and damage is to be avoided at all costs then taking them into battle seems like a pretty bad idea. If it is common for fighting Muslims to carry a Quran in their pockets then there must have been countless examples of Qurans getting burnt, having bullet holes, blown up etc. and in the vast majority of cases by other Muslims. Why hasn't there been a fatwa issued banning the bringing of Qurans into battle?

    I wonder how many Qurans get blown to shreds when crowds of Muslim pilgrims are regularly attacked by fellow Muslims? Why no outrage when those suicide bombers forget to ask the pilgrims to place their Qurans a safe place before they get the privilege to meet Allah?

    As a humanist these Muslims have insulted me in showing more respect for pocket books than for human suffering since appalling incidents of brutality don't result in the same show of indignation. For example how many Afghans protested against this:

    [​IMG]

    When are my sensitivities going to be respected?
     
  14. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Obviously; America has been killing them for 10 years. Why go all that way if you didn't 'care'?
     
  15. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    I don't think it's anyone's right to tell the Afghans what to do, think or believe. Don't patronise them or their strongly held beliefs. Yours are no better, or more valid, than theirs.
     
  16. stekim

    stekim New Member

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    This war will end the way all the others did. Lots of money spent, lots of lives lost, no real change in Afghanistan. Burning Korans or not buring them really makes little difference. When we arrived it was a corrupt, backward country run by illiterate sheep (or goat) herders tied to a fundamentalist religion and tribal loyalties. When we leave it will be the exact same. Other than a few new roads nothing will have changed.
     
  17. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    You could burn the bible, American flag and constitution and nobody would die. Its a uniquely Islamic thing.
     
  18. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Changed from being governed by a Taliban government that provided safe haven to Al Qaeda who carried out the 9/11 attacks, to being governedby a government who is our ally in our war against terrorism. A government that is now overwhelmingly preferred by the people of Afghanistan. Hell, the Taliban probably doesnt even want Al Qaeda in Afghanistan now.
     
  19. philxx

    philxx New Member

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    No one died in the US Civilwar ,OK,lots of different flags being burnt .lots of constitutions ignored.I wish the USA would keep out of other peoples civilwars.
     
  20. marbro

    marbro New Member

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    Many empires have said the same thing through the years and the answer is NO. Other than stopping the raiders
    ( or terrorist in our situation) there really is not reason to care about the barbarians.

    Its not like the Jews where a lot of the worlds populations througout history hated them. Nope, they just dont care. And every nation that goes into afghanistan learns the hard lessson that yes, its a myth that this region cant be conquered but its a reality that conquering it brings nothing but death and suffering to all people.

    Its a death trap. The people there will never stop fighting...NEVER. They never have and they never will. Logistics is hard to maintain a foreign occupation, even with all our techology we struggle with this.

    I am glad we dismantled the terrorist bases in Afghan but that is one place on this earth where there can be no clear victory.

    I believe America to be another. I dont imagine that Americans would submit fully any more than Those in Afghan. Now the French on the other hand.....lol.
     
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  21. WanRen

    WanRen New Member Past Donor

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    The problem is the USA and allies are approaching the issue in Afghanistan the wrong way. Too much extremism there and the only way is to totally cleanse the region adapt a zero tolerance for extremism, burn all extremist propaganda materials, treat extremist leaders and their henchman as criminals and murderers not as religious figures tried them and execute them for murder.

    Since Islam is the social and political way of life, have Muslim leaders publicly abrogate all the extremist ideology that are being use in the Quran and teach only the peaceful verses to all Muslim about those abrogated verses.

    Introduce freedom of beliefs.
     
  22. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Moral relativism in all its glory. I think the belief that 11 people shouldnt die because a book got burned in the trash is far superior to the belief that 11 people should die because a book was burned.
     
  23. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think bossy bullies should get the hell out of other people's countries where they have no business to be strutting about, and learn to do some honest work instead.
     
  24. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    We have no interest in conquering Afghanistan. We are not Europeans.
     
  25. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Get out then. Why did you go there?
     
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