My Question Which Keeps Getting Ignored...

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by TheHat, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Is now going to become an actual topic so that people can't hide from it anymore:

    Those who claim a "fetus is not a human being".

    If a "fetus" is not a human being, then explain to me and the rest of us how a 24 week old "fetus" can be delivered by C-section and cared for and survive.

    A "fetus" is deemed a "fetus" from week 8 to week 40 of pregnancy. If this "non-human being" gets delivered at 24 weeks into pregnancy, then what is sleeping over in ICU? What was just delivered by C-section?
     
  2. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    oo oo

    I know

    a zygote
     
  3. montra

    montra New Member

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    Those that support abortion care little about whether it is actually a human being. All that they know is that it is their life and time and money that is on the line. You see, it's all about me, me, me.

    Oh yea, and what about those back alley abortions preformed on under aged girls who have been raped as they give birth to a child with Down Syndrome? I forgot about that scenerio.

    Never mind then. Nothing to see here!! :police:

    And now for a dose of reality. The abortion industry is a billion dollar industry with those to lobby Congress. So where is the money to keep the unborn alive going to flow into Washington to get them to act? Hmmm?
     
  4. DeathStar

    DeathStar Banned

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    hey, if it's my body that a non-cognizant, non-conscious thing that has no self-awareness is suckling at, why the hell not abort it if I CHOOSE to?

    People around here don't like choice.
     
  5. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Figures. Discuss the topic. Stop trolling it.
     
  6. DeathStar

    DeathStar Banned

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    I directly and explicitly answered your question. How is that not a direct and explicit answer to your question? It is.
     
  7. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    This is a problem of imprecise terminology, nothing more.

    You say "fetus" when you actually mean "fetus of at least 24 weeks gestation."

    You also leave out the fact that caring for a fetus delivered that young requires massive medical intervention, many of them die, and most of those that don't have significant, life-long developmental issues. They're not exactly ready for prime-time.

    Do you call a pile of car parts a car? No. What if you put together two of the 20,000 parts? Still no. So at what point on the assembly line does a car actually become a car?

    That's the question surrounding abortion. Not an imprecise term like "fetus", which covers a huge range of gestation, from "clearly not viable" to "viable without serious intervention."
     
    OKgrannie and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Samuel Democritus

    Samuel Democritus New Member

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    The opposing argument is freedom of choice. I personally don't think a bunch of old men on capitol hill should tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. If you don't like abortions then don't have one it is that simple. But you all feel a need to be the morality police for everyone. If you love freedom, then why is it so hard to allow a woman to make a decision for herself concerning her own body? She is the one who has to live with the consequences not you, so why do you care so much?

    I am not trolling. I enjoy a good debate. Not arguments. Debate.
     
  9. montra

    montra New Member

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    Freedom of choice? Are we free to kill? The only quesiton here is, are the unborn human beings? At least, I don't think you are arguing that we should have the freedom of choice to kill who we desire to kill, soley based upon what we want to do in order to lower crime and poverty statistics.

    So when do they become human beings? Is it the magical time they exit the womb or some other mystical time frame?
     
  10. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, a 24 week fetus is a person, even when in the womb.
     
  11. montra

    montra New Member

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    I dunno. I heard the other day some lady gave birth to puppies. :nana:
     
  12. raytri

    raytri Well-Known Member

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    It is true, however, that the fetus and the woman have divergent interests. And at some point the fetus becomes human enough (in a legal sense) that it's right to survive outweighs the woman's rights in some circumstances.

    Most people agree, for instance, that it should be illegal to abort a 40-week full-term fetus. So unless the mother's life or health are seriously endangered, the fetus' rights trump the mother's in that instance.

    Most people also agree that a 4-week gestation zygote has no rights at all -- certainly none that outweigh the mother's right to determine her own choice. As you say, that difficult choice should be left to the individual.

    The question for the law, then, is how and when rights accrue to the fetus, such that it can go from having no rights at all at 4 weeks, but compelling rights at 40 weeks.

    The current legal compromise is "viability". In practice that means abortion on demand in the first trimester, abortion with some restrictions in the second, and abortion only in very rare, emergency cases in the third.

    I'm comfortable with that.

    There is still a gray area in the middle. Technology constantly moves the "viability" line, for instance. And there are other considerations, such as the cost of intervention. If something is only viable if you spend $1 million keeping it alive, that's not a reasonable choice to force on the mother.

    So I support a reasonable definition of "viability", which means being able to survive outside the womb without heroic, massively expensive intervention. That provides reasonable protection to the fetus without undue government intrusion into what is a very personal matter.
     
  13. DeathStar

    DeathStar Banned

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    Do you consider a zygote to be a human being?
     
  14. montra

    montra New Member

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    For me, once the egg is fertilized they are a human being. In truth, we are all just a bunch of cells at varying degrees of development.....or lack thereof as the case may be.
     
  15. Samuel Democritus

    Samuel Democritus New Member

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    That is the problem. When does a fetus become a human being? That is the million dollar question in the abortion debate that will likely never be answered because I am not sure that we can know the answer.

    No, I do not think that we should have the freedom to kill whoever we desire. However, I also do not agree that you should be allowed to tell a woman what she can do with her body. If you don't like abortions then don't have one. Making it illegal will not fix anything. The technology is out there and people know about it and people will use it whether it is legal or not if they really want to. Better it be regulated than it go to back alley. I know most of you think that is a lame argument. But making something illegal does not erase it, and often times does not even change the frequency in which it happens. As long as there is demand, there will be doctors willing to fill the supply whether they do it illegally or not. Just ask the doctors who let people without any pain problems illegally pay them X amount of dollars for a prescription of Oxycontin or Roxicet.
     
  16. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    in agreement with the above
     
  17. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    I asked specific questions.

    If you can't answer them or won't answer them, why bother commenting?

    If a fetus is not a human being, then what lays in ICU at 24 weeks old?

    Folks, this is a specific thread centered around specific questions.

    Let's maintain that please.
     
  18. montra

    montra New Member

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    Let me be blunt, the reason that the unborn can be rationally snuffed out is because they are not seen or heard. In fact, in society those without a voice are routinely tranpled over or ignored altogether.

    And yes, the back alley argument is outdated and tiresome. That is like saying you risk getting mugged to go kill your baby in a dark alley somewhere.
     
  19. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An unborn child is a potential human being but could not survive on its own, just as a woman is a potential slave or victim of back-street abortion if the bullies get power again but has choice meanwhile. We are all potentially saints, buddhas, I don't know what, but potential is not necessarily realised. Surely it is ludicrous to pretend that we are - say - the potential humans we might become under socialism and lock up the capitalists for preventing our natural development? I know this is not high on the tea-bag agenda, but it is surely equivalent?
     
  20. DeathStar

    DeathStar Banned

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    All animals are just that-a bunch of animal cells. Should it be illegal to stomp on a (*)(*)(*)(*) spider?
     
  21. montra

    montra New Member

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    A baby is a potential human being. A child is a potential human being. Even a liberal is a potential human being, despite my better judgement.
     
  22. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    WARNING: I have sent a message to the mods about this thread and I have asked them to delete anything & everything that is off topic or trolling.

    I don't know what else to do here.

    Read the OP and discuss specifically what is in the OP. If you are incapable of doing that, then please don't post in this thread. This thread is not about choice, or viability.

    It's about answering this statement that a fetus is not a human being. I provided a specific, real world event and I would like those who claim a fetus is not a human being to explain what lays in ICU at 12 weeks premature (24 weeks of pregnancy) if not a human being. What is it then?
     
  23. Samuel Democritus

    Samuel Democritus New Member

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    Are you not conversely taking the power of choice away from the woman? The problem is a rights conflict. Who has more rights? The mother or the unborn child? It is a difficult question. People will do what they want regardless of what you say or your opinion is on the matter. The technology is out there and it is never going to go back to the way it was before. You can like it or hate it but it's the truth. A woman who is adamant about having an abortion is going to have one no matter what because she knows the technology to do so is out there. Now you can say yes but if it is illegal we can punish them for doing it and the fear of punishment will prevent it. Well how do you prove it? The woman might have only told the doctor that performed the operation and considering he/she would be participating in an illegal activity as well he/she isn't going to tell either. You would almost have to catch them in the act unless the woman tried to have a 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion but even then she could just tell everyone she miscarried.

    I understand where you are coming from but abortion becoming illegal is never going to be reality. It is here to stay. It is similar to the anti gun people who fail to realize that criminals don't play by the rules and making guns illegal allows criminals to obtain black market weapons, and then the law abiding citizen is at a severe disadvantage because they can't legally own one. Making something illegal does not solve the problem. It creates a black market is all it does. Be it guns, drugs, or in this case a medical operation. The demand is there and someone will always be willing to fill the supply legal or not. Making it illegal simply allows the doctors who perform it to ask for more money because of added risk and will not stop a woman dead set on having an abortion from having one.
     
  24. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Republicans, in my better judgement, aren't. But what has that to do with anything? Potentiality is not actuality, as I say.
     
  25. DeathStar

    DeathStar Banned

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    Elimination of poverty and crime, for me personally, but that doesn't speak for anyone that's pro-abortion.

    But yeah, I'd like you to show how a 24 week old fetus is self-aware.
     

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