Any lifer got the guts to debate me?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by MegadethFan, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It boils down to a simple concept. What is life? We consider something that is not dead as "alive"; therefore, life is that which is not dead.

    When does life begin? Well, with human beings, it never begins but continues in different states. Sperm is alive until dead. An egg is alive until dead. The mating of both are alive until dead.

    The question of life then, becomes not about life but about an arbitrary point in time where someone can be considered a viable human. Before and after that arbitrary viability, life exists.

    So, is it good to take life or bad to take life? The moral question is ambiguous as there are times when it is good to take life and times when it is bad. In come cases, that decision to move from good to bad is again arbitrary. We consider it good to take life to eat or good to take life to defend ones own life. We consider it bad to indiscriminately take life for no reason. Problem is that reason may also be arbitrary such as during war where we excuse the indiscriminate taking of life to a certain extent and also deem it moral.

    So then what is morality but a moving target based on the mores of the group?

    That leaves one to try and decide for oneself what is moral, like the OP has done. The OP has decided that taking life in the case of a fetus is moral and yes, you are taking life.

    If one were to try to devise a decision tree to make those life and death decisions, even the most moral person would have to come to a point where taking life may not be considered moral, but necessary for other life to continue, such as in hunting and in defending oneself. Some decide that even defending oneself does not qualify. Again, that depends on that decision tree you choose to follow.

    So what would be a good basis to start from in deciding life or death? I propose that a good moral point to start from is that "all life is sacred". From that point you have to make very well reasoned decisions to take life and to keep those to a minimum.

    A personal decision to abort to protect the mothers life is a viable decision point. Personal decision to abort for purely selfish reasons is not so yes, abortion can be immoral.

    These are personal decisions. Society has decided by a majority that you cannot arbitrarily take someone else's life. Society has no majority agreement on abortion. Taking that into account, I believe that the sanctity of life should be taught but because there is no general agreement in society about abortion, that decision should be between self and your Creator and self and the physician.
     
  2. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    LOL OK, but do you want a third party to make sure its all done effectively or you dont mind?

    ps. I'm going out soon so I'll have to create the thread later today, possible this time tomorrow.
     
  3. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Aha no it doesn't. This is a false premise, in my opinion, that undermines the entirety of lifer and pro-choice arguments centered around 'when does life begin.' They first have to show why human life, as a concept, is special and why it worth defending.
     
  4. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    I dont care, i havent made a thread so your probally better. ok.
     
    MegadethFan and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That really sums up your entire debate.

    So you don't agree that anything else is alive unless it is a human past a certain arbitrary point?
     
  6. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    Yall are going to make the debate thread boring.
     
  7. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    I can substantiate that opinion with logical reasoning that renders it a truth AS WELL AS an opinion. Having an opinion does not mean you dont have a substantiated claim.

    Could you rephrase that question, I couldnt quite understand it.

    Incidentally, for someone criticizing another for having a view, could you answer my question before about your false premise that human life is special?
     
  8. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't say human life is special. I posited that all life is sacred as a starting point in making decisions in taking life.

    Now, how do you define life? You saw mine, life is that which is not dead.
     
  9. l4zarus

    l4zarus Member

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    They may experiment at a young age--which btw does not necessarily include penile/vaginal sex--and so yes, to cover all bases sex education should be mandatory. I don't know why you have a problem with this concept; more sex education = less teen pregnancies(were both parties are actually teens) = less abortions.

    What was probably said, that you didn't bother reading carefully, is something like teens who want to have sex will do it regardless. Practically and statistically speaking that's older teens, not 12 to 14 year olds, and certainly not 12 to 14 year old getting pregnant.

    You also appear to
    Keep in mind the incest factor in young teen pregnancies was recognized relatively recently.
     
  10. injest

    injest New Member

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    how about actually posting a link to the post where I said I was done?
     
  11. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    Somewhat true, ive heard of a stat in which teens who are 15 are least to reconize that they are not immortal, they can die, and that death is irreversible. I guess it works in psycology the same for pregnancies.
     
  12. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so why is all life sacred?

    I'd define life the same way, except I dont find life a very exceptional or "sacred" thing.
     
  13. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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  14. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    Ok so tell me, would you mind if i went to your house and pointed a gun at your head, with me willing to pull the trigger. I mean, i saw your Aussie politics thing, dont you want to vote for the liberal democrats.
     
  15. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, the idea is to have a starting point for moral decisions.

    For instance, if you don't find life very exceptional or "sacred", then you should have no problems believing the holocaust was nothing special and that if it happened again it would be OK or that it would be OK to kill anyone indiscriminately for no other reason than you felt like it.

    I am going to guess that you may not actually believe that but I would have to ask you first. If you don't believe that, then you have already decided to use some starting point for making decisions about life and death and put them into a moral perspective. If so, what would that point be and what would your moral perspective be?
     
  16. marbro

    marbro New Member

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    Here is a repost that I think relevent to this discussion.

    I Find it interesting that most states have laws that its murder if you kill a unborn baby except for abortion. So , if someone were to kick a mother and as a result its murder but on the other hand if the mother decides to kill the baby is ok because in their minds its not a baby...WHAT?

    A couple of examples

    Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.

    Alaska. Stat. § 11.41.150 et seq., § 11.81.250 , § 12.55.035, and § 12.55.125 (2005) relate to offenses against unborn children. The law provides that a defendant convicted of murder in the second degree or murder of an unborn child shall be sentenced to a definite term of imprisonment of at least 10 years but no more than 99 years. The law does not apply to acts that cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf consented, or for which such consent is implied by law.
     
  17. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are far too many 12-14 year old girls getting pregnant, and even younger.

    http://www.sexedlibrary.org/index.cfm?pageId=798

    National Vital Statistics Report: Births to 10–14 Year Old Mothers 1990–2002: Trends and Health Outcomes

    Source: Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

    Description: This article presents the national and statewide birthrates for
    females ages 10–14. The data is categorized by age and race/ethnicity.

    Key Statistics:

    Over 97% of births to the youngest teenage mothers are to females ages 13–14.
    In 2002, of the 7,315 births to females ages 10–14, 208 were to females ages 10–12 and 7,107 were to females ages 13–14.
    Birth rates to the youngest teenagers varied by State and territory, ranging in 2000–2002 from 0.2 per 1,000 (Maine) to 2.0 (Mississippi and the District of Columbia).
    The highest rates are in the South and Southwest.
     
  18. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    LMAO….you pro-aborts kill me….pun intended.

    Sick of lifers???? LMAO Your a hoot.

    Morals only matter to people with morals. So abortion is ok to you because you obviously can't tell the difference between right and wrong…there is no difference. You are a moral relativist. So abortion…probably rape…pedophelia, child porn, is ok for you. Right? My morals come from God and are set in stone….if you say you have them…you make them up to fit your lifestyle…so anything for that matter like I said could be moral.

    I will debate you any time any place so bring it on pro-abort. And honey this is a debate site…..right here…are you running already?
     
  19. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Maybe that was one mistake his mother made…..eh?
     
  20. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    And there lies the problem….the two sides can never find common ground because one sides sees killing as wrong and immoral and the other does not.

    The thing is …the majority of people will agree….even pro-choice/aborts that abortion is immoral that it is wrong. That is why abortion is not talked about in many places. It is taboo. How many times have you ever heard of women talking about the abortions they had? Ever hear a women say…Cant meet ya for lunch next week gonna schedule an abortion? Or someone say…well the reason my daughter couldn't come to the party…she had an abortion that day and was not feeling good?
    It does not happen…..for all the obvious reasons. I have been banned from three debate sites because I refuse to stop using the term pro-aborts to describe those who are pro-choice. There is no difference….only in the mind of the pro-abort who chooses to look away. How moral is that?

    No people know what abortion is and does…and most will admit it is not moral. But the immoral act…..they believe should be legal. So there can be no agreeing on terms.
     
  21. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    See it is usually the people that have to resort to using profanity because they don't have anything else…and already….your doing it. LOL

    You are here debating this because YOUR MOTHER GAVE YOU LIFE…..AND NOW YOU CAN BASH HER CHOICE RIGHT HERE….BY BEING PRO-ABORTION. LOL
     
  22. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Do you think rape is moral?
    Do you think child pornography is moral?
    Do you think pedophelia is moral?

    If you say yes….then you prove what I said….you make your morals up as you go along….anything for you or anyone else.

    If you say no….then who told you it was wrong? Do you agree and would be tolerant with someone who said they were all acceptable activities?
     
  23. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    I find you pro-aborts…comical the way you think your actually moral. LOL

    Wow….you can kill that eight month old baby in the womb……ILL JUST LOOK AWAY. I am pro-life……..

    Yea right your NOT. NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ARE YOU PRO-LIFE.

    The Germans did what you pro aborts do…….look the other way and then think themselves good. LMAO
     
  24. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    You are right our laws are not consistent. A woman who is pregnant on death row can't be executed….why? She is carrying another life.
    So basically if you hire a hit on the child….its legal…anything else…you might pay.
     
  25. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Anyone who is pro-choice/abortion does not think life is sacred or special.

    Not when they are content to look the other way, not when they don't want protection for the life started in the womb.
     

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