Various Religious Positions On Abortion

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Fugazi, Apr 15, 2013.

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  1. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    It is my belief that the majority of pro-life people are religiously motivated and only in recent times have they tried to shed some of this religious zeal to encourage those who would be put off.
    In order to address the religious argument put forward by pro-life people that abortion is against god's (which ever one they pray to) I have been doing a little research into the actual historical positions of various religions;

    Roman Catholicism

    Probably the best known advocates of making abortion illegal . .however it wasn't actually part of the catholic law until Pope Pius XI’s 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii, prior to this point abortion was generally allowed for the first three months when "quickening" was the point it was believed the soul entered the body. There is not one single mention of abortion in the bible, which considering it must have gone on, is revealing in itself. For a very long time the Vatican refused to issue a binding position on abortion.

    Protestant Christianity

    Probably the most diverse and de-centralized religion there is, there is almost nothing that is not true for some denomination somewhere. Vocal opposition to abortion is widely common in Protestant circles, but there is support for abortion rights - it's just not as loud. There is no single Protestant position on abortion, but Protestants who oppose abortion sometimes portray themselves as the only true Christians.

    Judaism

    Ancient Judaism was naturally pro-natalist, but without a central authority dictating orthodox beliefs, there has been vigorous debate on abortion. The only scriptural mention of anything like an abortion does not treat it as murder. Jewish tradition allows for abortion for the sake of the mother because there is no soul in the first 40 days, and even in the latter stages of pregnancy, the fetus has a lower moral status than the mother. In some cases, it may even be a mitzvah, or sacred duty.

    Islam

    Many conservative Muslim theologians condemn abortion, but there is ample room in Islamic tradition for permitting it. Where Muslim teachings do allow for abortion, it is generally limited to the early stages of pregnancy and only on the condition that there are very good reasons for it — frivolous reasons are not allowed. Even later abortions may be permitted, but only if it can be described as the lesser evil — that is to say, if not having an abortion would lead to a worse situation.

    Buddhism

    Buddhist belief in reincarnation leads to belief that life begins at the moment of conception. This naturally inclines Buddhism against allowing abortion. Taking the life of any living thing is generally condemned in Buddhism, so of course killing a fetus would not meet with easy approval. There are, however, exceptions — there are different levels of life and not all life is equal. Abortion to save the life of the mother or if not done for selfish and hateful reasons is permissible.

    Taoism, Confucianism

    There is evidence that the Chinese practiced abortion in ancient times and nothing in either Taoist or Confucian ethical codes explicitly forbids it. At the same time, though, it isn’t encouraged — it’s usually treated as a necessary evil, to be used as a last resort. Only rarely is it promoted, for example if the health of the mother requires it. Because it’s not forbidden by any authority, the decision about when it’s necessary is left entirely in the hands of the parents.

    Reviewing the diverse religious traditions above, we can find a great deal of agreement on when abortion might be permitted. Most religions agree that abortion is more permissible in the early stages of pregnancy than in the latter stages and that the economic and health interests of the mother generally outweigh whatever interests the fetus might have for being born.

    Most religions don’t appear to regard abortion as murder because they don’t ascribe the exact same moral status to the fetus as they do to the mother — or even to a newborn infant. However much abortion might be treated as a sin and immoral, it still doesn’t generally rise the same level of immorality as killing person. This indicates that anti-choice activists today who argue so vociferously that abortion is murder and impermissible have adopted a position which is ahistorical and contrary to most religious traditions.

    I would conclude that the use of religious values in an abortion debate has more to do with the pro-life need to try and enforce a theocracy, which in my opinion is their ultimate goal.
     
  2. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Just bumping this up as it would seem pro-lifers don't want to get involved.
     
  3. WhatNow!?

    WhatNow!? New Member

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    Good research and an interesting read!

    But, as you may know, Anti-Choicers really hate learning and education that may poke holes in their Anti-Woman rantings...so they probably won't bother reading it...just like they haven't bothered reading anything to do with human history/history of the world/history period! :)
     
  4. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    And again another Pagan attempt at bringing up religion. Why can't you guys debate abortion just based on what the scientific community says. Why should any believer want to waste their time discussing this with people who just want to mock them no matter what they say?

    What is your motive?
     
  5. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Its not a religious issue. Its an issue pertaining to when a society decides it is ok to kill human life. I really don't know your obsession with trying turn this into a religious based issue unless its an attempt to deflect it for what it is.
     
  6. Madman in the Water

    Madman in the Water New Member

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    Perhaps it is because "Pro-Lifers" have maintained it as a religious crusade for 40+ years. But I understand how difficult that position has become as more people realize that the New Testament clearly teaches that life begins at quickening, and that was the Christian belief on the subject until the 20th century. But how do you maintain that the question of who is to be considered human is not a religious issue? Are you saying it is a moral issue? If so you are merely playing with semantics. Science can make observations, but it cannot make such religious/moral decisions.
     
  7. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Just curious, but what makes you assume that they are Pagan?
     
  8. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    So do you deny that the pro-life movement is firmly entrenched in religious motives and that the majority of pro-life groups are based on religious dogma.

    I couldn't care less about your own personal religious viewpoints, you could pray to the tooth fairy for all I care .. until that viewpoint starts to want to control others, which is the objective of the pro-life agenda.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course it is a religious issue .. just do some research and see where the majority of pro-life groups have their roots or even just go through the posts on this very forum and you can see the religious dogma in every pro-life post.
     
  9. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Pro-lifers don't care as it goes someway of showing their obvious motives.

    you do and have so what is your point

    and of course I must bow to your all powerfull knowledge simply because you say it is so .. if you anything valid to add to the thread then please do so, otherwise its just the ususal avoidence by you.
     
  10. WhatNow!?

    WhatNow!? New Member

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    Here an Anti-Choicer(your buddy) brining up religion, one of MANY threads/posts where Anti-Choicers introduced religion: """the fetus is like the modern-day slave"""
    Here's another: """Pro-choicers, you better be right that a fetus is not a "person" """"



    Why can't you guys debate abortion just based on what the scientific community says. :)
     
  11. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Well that would be preferable to your posting a known lie repeatedly wouldn't it?

     
  12. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Because it isn't the "scientific community" who determines what is morally right and wrong, and secondly there is no "scientific community" per se.

    Science tells us that a zygote is the beginning of every human beinbg, so I am good with doing the rational thing and recognizing a human being as such from the beginning.

    So why don't YOU base your opinion on what science says?


     
  13. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    It is like banging your head against the wall....talking to someone who only wants to bash believers about their faith. You are not motivated by the real truth in this.
    You don't get it...because your not a believer. So tell me what difference it makes?

    This is my favorite subject....but not like I said..when the motivation for truth and learning is not there. You do not have the god given ability to debate this with a believer. Debate it with pagans...then you will all agree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    People sometimes avoid what makes them sick.......and in this case it is not the threads title or subject.
     
  14. WhatNow!?

    WhatNow!? New Member

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    You seem to put your responses before the post you quote so i'm not surprised you can't follow posts in a logical order.
    Refer to the posts above starting with a poster's claim that "pagans' bring up religion...when obviously the goddies do it frequently.

    So YOUR post above really has nothing to do with the post of mine you quoted except as a weak means to side step the FACT that Anti-Choicers bring up religion quite a bit.....
     
  15. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    When someone bashes you for having well thought out and supported ideas, as Fugazi has bashed me before, then the basher has no real credibility with which to convince anyone else. Sometimes this makes them insecure and they lash out as we see here.

    I just wish they would take a breath, analyze their own opinions in light of what is reasonable and logical, then change their opinion accordingly. The forum would be a much better place if they would.

    It is also a sign of a weak opinion when the only way you can support it is to attack the opposition's supposed motive for their position. If one's position is secure and supportable, this diversionary tactic is not necessary.

     
  16. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    You don't care about learning about this...what should it matter to you? Are you just in the hate believers mood today? Your points not workin in another threads so lets make one to demean those who love God? I could post everything the Bible says about life and Gods word on this....and IT WOULD NOT MATTER. So I am not going to be apart of someones negative and close-minded motives...when discussing what I take so seriously.

    And note....a list of many different religions ....but oddly enough atheism which is a religion is not there. Hmmmmm
     
  17. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    This topic has been discusses a million times. These people hate believers and only wish to drag MY LORDS name through the mud. And for what? They do it for kicks. Sometimes you just have to walk away...If I knew the discussion would not involve the spaghetti monster and respect I might interact...but it always resorts to that for them.

    They can attack anything they want and I don't care...I won't be apart of pagan hatred like usually is shown towards Christ...not gonna happen.
     
  18. WhatNow!?

    WhatNow!? New Member

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    But you ARE interacting...you are posting here .




    "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi
     
  19. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Proof to the known lie, or again is this just your almighty opinion that all must bow to.

    Haven't seen a single thing, except avoidence, that disputes that the pro-life position isn't based on religious dogma
     
  20. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    The truly ironic part of it is that they are bashing your religion when it is totally irrelevant to the discussion of abortion anyway. legally and scientifically abortion is a homicide and they refuse to admit that simple fact. Probably because they cannot refute truth. So they instead start flailing around slinging mud in every direction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Then you haven't read even one of my posts. My oposition to abortion is scientifically and logically based.

     
  21. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    and how am I "bashing" you about your faith personally, actually read what is written here in the OP and then explain how it is aimed at you personally when it is talking about the relevant positions of various religions on abortion.

    You seem to have some sort of persecution complex when it comes to debating the position of religion in abortion, one has to wonder why.

    I think preaching to the converted is the phrase you are looking for, a pretty pointless exercise in a debating forum.
     
  22. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Problem is you haven't supported your ideas with anything other than you own opinion and when someone actually confronts you on it all you do is throw around insults about them being idiots or such like .. would you care for me to go and find where the insults started, I can assure you it was from you.

    for you to talk about credibility of others is quite amusing considering you have given nothing to earn any here (apart from you like minded religious people), if you feel that this thread is inane then why don't you produce the evidence to dispute it instead of just spouting off meaningless drivel.
     
  23. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    This has been disputed not just by me but by another poster who you just ended up ignoring with the usual attempted put-down, and I remind you again that it was you who started the mud flinging .. practice what you preach.
    The problem you have is that when someone discredits your assertions you cannot accept you may actually be wrong or that other people may actually have a better knowledge and/or understanding of that particular issue than you do.

    I defy you or CM to show in this thread where I am "bashing" her belief in Christianity .. I am not and all of your replies are just an attempt to derail the thread.
     
  24. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Exactly how am I demeaning love of god here, have you actually read the OP. Everything I have posted in the OP is fact, it is easily checked if you so wish, the final part is an opinion, yet you focus more on the opinion than on the facts presented .. why is that, dispute the facts if you can.

    I'm not an atheist and atheism is not a religion.
     
  25. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    You are lying, once again, but here ya go:

    http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

    "The entire basis for a new, human life beginning at conception stems from well documented, universally recognized scientific fact. The only ones who deny this are those blinded by their own religious dogma of so-called “choice” who have a stubborn need to deny scientific fact in order to stay faithful to their own ideology."

    "That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert George"


    - - - Updated - - -

    You are lying, once again, but here ya go:

    http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

    "The entire basis for a new, human life beginning at conception stems from well documented, universally recognized scientific fact. The only ones who deny this are those blinded by their own religious dogma of so-called “choice” who have a stubborn need to deny scientific fact in order to stay faithful to their own ideology."

    "That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert George"


     
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