A Valedictorian crybaby refuses to write an apology after she swore on stage.

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by texmaster, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. RosePop

    RosePop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, I mean oh, wow blame it on being in the moment, I mean what a OUTRAGEOUS gal to change up to the big swear word to show the crowd how "edgy" she is- shes probably a progressive lib and so are her parent and this is what the future has to deal with, never been so glad to not be immortal in my whole life. Fight the power!
     
  2. texmaster

    texmaster Banned

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    And that's completely plausible.

    Its just amazing to me all this effort to get around issuing an apology for something she knows was a mistake.
     
  3. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    You're glad not to be "immortal"? Strange, I would gladly take being immortal.

    Assuming you mean "immoral," are you seriously claiming you've never said the word "hell" or a similar word? If you're claiming that, I would suggest your immorality consists of lying to yourself and to us.
    I think the problem is more the principal withholding her diploma over it.

    Had the principal simply confronted her after the ceremony, and the student apologized verbally for her slip, I would have been on board 100%. But, since we're acknolwedging it was a mistake in the moment, the retribution should have similarly been in the moment. Dragging all this out over months with demands for a "written letter" and holding her diploma is just nonsense.

    It's like trying to punish my kids next week for something they do today. If it doesn't take place in the moment, it's ineffective and simply cruel.

    This is what happens in our "lowest common denominator" school system, though.
     
  4. Akula

    Akula Banned

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    This REALLY bothers you a LOT, doesn't it?
    Nobody cares about high school once they're out.
    She's valedictorian.Whatever college she gets offered an academic scholarship to isn't going to care if she said "hell" in high school. It isn't the stupid paper diploma..it's her grades they consider.
    College and the business world are for adults. (normal) Adults are able to put things in perspective
     
  5. texmaster

    texmaster Banned

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    LOL Wow.

    I. The Fraser Standard (Bethel School District. No. 403 v. Fraser, 1986)

    In the case of Bethel v. Fraser, the Supreme Court ruled that school officials could punish high school senior Matthew Fraser for giving a speech before the student assembly that contained lewd references.6 In his speech, Fraser nominated classmate Jeff Kuhlman for a student government office. The speech contained numerous sexual references. In court, Fraser argued that a speech nominating another classmate for a student elective office was entitled to as much protection as the black armbands in Tinker. The high court disagreed, distinguishing his "vulgar" speech during a school-sponsored event from the pure "political" speech in the Tinker decision.

    In its opinion, the court majority stated that "the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings."7 Instead, the high court set up a balancing test: "the freedom to advocate unpopular and controversial views in schools and classrooms must be balanced against society’s countervailing interest in teaching students the boundaries of socially appropriate behavior."8

    The high court added: "Surely, it is a highly appropriate function of public school education to prohibit the use of vulgar and offensive terms in public discourse."9


    And you still want to pretend you're a lawyer?

    http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/freedoms/faq.aspx?id=12991
     
  6. texmaster

    texmaster Banned

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    It bothers me a child who knows she was wrong can't take 5 minutes to apologize yes. Its a symptom of what is wrong with this country when we excuse it.
     
  7. Joker

    Joker Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I think the principal's approach was a huge problem here. Making threats to get your way often just results in resentment and anger from the threatened, especially with young adults.
     
  8. Akula

    Akula Banned

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    Lowered morals are more of an indication of "what is wrong with this country" than a teenager (adult? was she eighteen?) saying "hell".
    Your manufactured indignation and continuous harangue is out of proportion to the (non) event.

    Your control/power issues are reflected in the use of a swastika in your "gay pride" flag, however.
     
  9. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    You didn't answer my question. I'm fully aware of Tinker and its progeny, showing that schools can in some instances regulate the "speech" or symbolic speech of their students, considering I teach a unit on the First Amendment in my Con Law class (albeit to undergrads).

    What I'm asking for is (1) the rule of this school, stating that "hell" is considered a vulgar word, and (2) the proof that she was aware, or should have been aware, of that rule.

    The reason why I ask is because you are arguing that she "violat[ed] the rules on profanity." http://www.politicalforum.com/curre...y-after-she-swore-stage-6.html#post1061618690

    A Supreme Court case stating that schools can in some instances create a rule prohibiting certain language is not, under any circumstances, equivalent to showing that this school, in fact, created such a rule prohibiting use of the word "hell".

    Since you allege that she "violat[ed] the rules on profanity," you (still) need to show that such a rule exists.

    You would do well to pay attention to the questions people actually ask, instead of thinking you know the question and rushing to throw out an answer, with copius insults and personal attacks tacked on in arrogance.But since you bring up Tinker, Bethel v. Fraser, and the like, I have an additional query: Since there's no doubt the language used in Fraser which subjected the student to punishment was far coarser and was deliberately designed to be disruptive (read the case), why don't you explain to me, in light of Fraser (and the subsequent, and much more applicable Morse v. Frederick), how you think the Court would rule in this case, and why?

    I'll help you out by giving you my answer: I think the Court would rule in the student's favor. I say this in light of Morse, and also in light of Fox v. FCC, which disapproved the FCC's "fleeting explatives" rule, albeit on other grounds (Fifth Amendment). I think Morse and Fraser are clearly distinguishable from this situation. In both cases, the students were punished for behavior that was designed to be disruptive, and in the case of Fraser, actually was disruptive. In this case, there's no doubt the student's utterance of the word "hell" was not disruptive, and pretty much no doubt she didn't design it to be - you seem to agree it was a "mistake."

    And, really, the whole "pretend to be a lawyer" thing is ridiculous. Really, it's just your way of avoiding the actual fact that you've been proven wrong so many times. What do you want? A picture of my admittance certificate? My office number? Law school diploma? Trust me when I say there's no way you end up looking like anything other than a fool and a joke if you keep going down this road, seeing as how I can absolutely show I'm an attorney, since I am one.
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you're missing the point of the objection. It should have taken 5 seconds to apologise; Principal: "You shouldn't have said 'hell' in your speech." Student: "I know, it was a mistake. I'm sorry", The End.

    The problem is the alleged gross over-reaction of the principal in immediately demanding a written apology and the blackmail of refusing the diploma. That seems totally out of line in the context of the "offence" and wouldn't achieve anything meaningful even if it was successful (what's the point of a forced apology?). I think it's perfectly legitimate for this student to stand up to what appears an abuse of power for the good of all other students under the principal's authority.

    Like other posters, I'd also be interested to know if the principal was applying specific rules or working completely at his discretion.
     
  11. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    Since texmaster would never post anything that harms his argument, here, let's look at this follow-up article:
    http://kfor.com/2012/08/21/diploma-dilemma-update/

    Of note from the story, the writer apparently contacted the State Schools Department, to ask whether, under Oklahoma law, the school had any right to react this way. They said the school has no right to withhold her transcript.

    The girl's attorney says, "According to the school’s own rules, there’s only two grounds to withhold a diploma and that is vandalism, clearly no one says that she engaged in vandalism, and the other is if she had some sort of unpaid fee like a library book or something else."

    So, looks like her attorney read the school's own handbook or graduation rules or whatever, and found that what she did was not against the rules that would allow them to withhold her diploma.

    This is going to end badly for the school district, I suspect.
     
  12. Akula

    Akula Banned

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    Thank you for your research and for putting this beaten horse out of its' misery.
    I've never seen so much fake outrage over such an insignificant, trivial non event...
     

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