Defining Jihad: its early inception and modern use.

Discussion in 'Ethnic & Religious Conflicts' started by MegadethFan, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Which is fine. Making the world open to Islam is different to forcing Islam upon it.

    The link is dead, so I dont understand the context of this quote.

    Could you elaborate?

    This is from Qutb - a famous radical Islamist. Dix do you have ANY info on Islam that is seriously mainstream and non-radical?

    LOL! Another famous Islamist, although this time even more radical! haha

    In responding yes, you have not proven this assertion, unless you take the words of extremists seriously, which I dont want to do.
     
  2. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    And yet they continued to change, modify, discuss and reapply such concepts - and still do.
     
  3. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    LOL! If all you read is the literature of radicals and cherry picked quotes, of course you will think this.
     
  4. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    LOL! PERFECT EXAMPLE OF YOUR SCHOLARSHIP! Haha did it not occur to you THEY may have copied it from here?!?

    I can stack my entire membership on this forum on this essay here as being my own. So Dixon you can go and (*)(*)(*)(*) yourself if you disagree. This is just more evidence of how pathetic your debating skills are, and incidentally, evidence as to the fact others obviously thought I wrote something worthwhile - an Islamic website to boot.
     
  5. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    You are that stupid as well?

    Nice to see my work was that good my opponents denied it was mine!
     
  6. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is for the idolaters

    For the jews and christians a life of subjection is forced upon them.

    Its been interesting since 9/11 to see that writing disappear from one link after another. Shortly after 9/11 it was on several US University websites. Seems the last of them has been eliminated. Google search show it at another 126 sites

    http://www.alkhilafah.net/s6.html
     
  7. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Soooo you fancy yourself as the arbitor of who are and who are not "muslims".
     
  8. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    The shiite do. Not the Sunnis for the most part. Late 90s and Egyptian shariah court branded a professor an apostate for questioning Islamic doctrine that condones the owning of a slave girl and taxing the jews. Such things are settled law, no longer open to interpretation
     
  9. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    ...?...


    Not really. These passages stipulated political requirements as much as the social condition they fit into. So, as I noted, when the early expansions of the Rashidun occurred, jizya was loosely enforced - sometimes not at all. It was a form of tributary tax which was lower than the overall burden placed on Muslims, although this changed. As I said this concept of taxation was as much a protectorate notion of political leadership as much as a form of citizenship. It was not one of 'subjection', although it did became an asset of such policy at certain stages.

    I did not find one instance of the word jihad being used. The only thing stated here was that it was a duty to establish some form of Islamic rule, which practically speaking is essentially impossible at this point not to mention highly contested in the form it would take.
     
  10. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Of course, not you have taken that title for yourself clearly. My point is if you want a radical interpretation of Islam, you listen to radicals. If you want a liberal view you read a liberal Muslim. If you want a medieval perspective you read one etc etc. You delve entirely in extremist and radical literature, whilst cherry picking sections of Quran and hadith. I'm no arbiter, I'm just a guy with an opinion. Difference is I'm not insanely biased or out to prove a a personal view as you are.
     
  11. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. LOL You really dont seem to have grasped the material that you yourself refer to. You should know for example how modern Islamists, which you are fond of quoting, are a "revivalist" movement - one of reinterpretation and application of Islam to solve socio-political difficulties. As an example of their modern edge, they are very often individualistic. In the same vein, jihadis have entirely distorted Islam, especially the concept of jihad, in the same way. Jihad is a collective duty, but they have changed it to an individualized and sporadic concept.

    Could you give a link to that? Also, given what I have described above, I hardly see how this is evidence that supports your case.

    Maybe in your world, not on planet earth.
     
  12. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Revive a strict, literal interpretation that was followed in the past. Not some new reinterpretation

    No, we can read the bukhari hadiths, Here are the first 26 of 52 verses that contain the word "jihad"

    You dont need horses, swords and armour for an inner struggle. Inner struggles dont result in booty if you are successful and death when you are not. YOU distort Islam.

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/


    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
    Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
    The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."

    Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
    I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

    Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
    The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."

    Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
    Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

    Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
    The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."

    Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
    I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah.

    Volume 3, Book 31, Number 121:
    ...So, whoever was amongst the people who used to offer their prayers, will be called from the gate of the prayer; and whoever was amongst the people who used to participate in Jihad, will be called from the gate of Jihad;

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 724:
    Allah's Apostle said, "A pious slave gets a double reward." Abu Huraira added: By Him in Whose Hands my soul is but for Jihad (i.e. holy battles),

    Volume 4, Book 51, Number 33:
    When 'Umar got a piece of land in Khaibar, he came to the Prophet saying, "I have got a piece of land, better than which I have never got. So what do you advise me regarding it?" The Prophet said, "If you wish you can keep it as an endowment to be used for charitable purposes." So, 'Umar gave the land in charity (i.e. as an endowments on the condition that the land would neither be sold nor given as a present, nor bequeathed, (and its yield) would be used for the poor, the kinsmen, the emancipation of slaves, Jihad, and for guests and travelers; and its administrator could eat in a reasonable just manner, and he also could feed his friends without intending to be wealthy by its means."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
    I asked Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." I did not ask Allah's Apostle anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 42:
    Allah's Apostle said, "There is no Hijra (i.e. migration) (from Mecca to Medina) after the Conquest (of Mecca), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
    (That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:
    A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 56:
    ,,,Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband 'Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Mu awiya.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 79:
    On the day of the Conquest (of Mecca) the Prophet said, "There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately." (See Hadith No. 42)

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 81:
    In the life-time of the Prophet, Abu Talha did not fast because of the Jihad, but after the Prophet died I never saw him without fasting except on 'Id-ul-Fitr and 'Id-ul-Aclha.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 85:
    ....He told us that Zaid bin Thabit had told him that Allah's Apostle had dictated to him the Divine Verse:
    "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives.' (4.95)
    Zaid said, "Ibn-Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating to me that very Verse. On that Ibn Um Maktum said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I had power, I would surely take part in Jihad."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 87:
    Allah's Apostle went towards the Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and saw the Emigrants and the Ansar digging in a very cold morning as they did not have slaves to do that for them. When he noticed their fatigue and hunger he said, "O Allah! The real life is that of the Here-after, (so please) forgive the Ansar and the Emigrants." In its reply the Emigrants and the Ansar said, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 88:
    The Emigrants and the Ansar started digging the trench around Medina carrying the earth on their backs and saying, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will I carry on Jihad as long as we live."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 104:
    The Prophet said, "Good will remain (as a permanent quality) in the foreheads of horses (for Jihad) till the Day of Resurrection, for they bring about either a reward (in the Hereafter) or booty (in this world."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 112:
    The one for whom they are a source of reward, is he who keeps a horse for Allah's Cause (i.e. Jihad)
     
  13. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    LOL I'm sorry but its new. Individualism being the example as I sight that is most relevant to this thread. You are so ignorant you probably have never heard of fard kifaya and fard 'ayn.

    Why should we read them? What do they tell us that is disputed?

    That's right. The "greater" jihad is about struggle outside of warfare.

    You already quoted these and I already gave a response which you did not reply to.
     
  14. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Why? You should apologize now while you have the chance. I ought to report you for not only accusing me of something that is completely wrong and BLATANTLY so, but also for wasting mods time.
     
  15. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Did you post it at the Islamic site? Are you alleging they copied and pasted you?
    I dont at this point care too much one way or another and can now direct my criticisms directly to you as the claimed author. Care to comment? The essay claims Jihad, is "mostly attributed to military ventures" as some kind of western misconception when in fact we can see it is because in the Bukhari hadiths it is "mostly attributed to military ventures".
     
  16. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    For the trillianth time - NO.

    For the trillianth time - NO.

    Why only now do you not care? Because you were totally wrong? I'll be waiting for an apology.

    Read the whole passage:
    "As you can see, jihad is the Islamic concept of moral striving and the struggle against impurity of the self AND tyranny of society. Whilst it is also a concept of moral striving for personal purification, it has historically been mostly attributed to military ventures. It’s a theory of just war, if we look at it through the eyes of Western concepts of the same caliber, which has experienced various stages of development and use."

    I never said this was an entirely Western perspective, I jihad cna be considered a just war theory through the Western perspective.

    For the third time now, I must ask, what were your boring quotes from al-Bukhari trying to prove?
     
  17. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    They DIRECTLY contradict your assertion that it is an incorrect usage,to consider jihad a “holy war”. You attributed this misconception to "propaganda dating to the Crusades" when we can see that it dates at a minimum back to the bukhari hadiths.
     
  18. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    Nothing like the western concept of just war. Wars of Apostasy fought after Muhammads death were to force the people to remain loyal to Islam, which they had failed to do when they failed to pay their tax to the Muslim rulers. Within 80 years of Muhammads death they were waging jihad (the "jihad" that requires horses, swords and armour and lead to either death or booty) against Spain in the west and Afghanistan in the east. Conquering more subjects to pay tax for the privilidge of being allowed to live another day.
     
  19. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    How so? Jihad being related to warfare IS NOT the same as jihad related to the concept of "holy war." You have established another logical fallacy in your argumentation - non sequitur.

    LOL Again, where did I see the warfare linkage was wrong? No I specifically linked the idea of "holy war". Bukhari doesn't mention "holy war", does he? He mentions jihad, ie fighting in a just war, as a noble virtue - EVERY society would agree with him. You have not substantiated your claim and are cherry picking my essay, like you do all of your sources, to manipulate my contention and present a false argument. Its quite amusing to what lengths you will go. I'm still waiting for an apology.
     
  20. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    How so? Where is the inconsistency? You cant represent two lines. Please write the following passages that say do not start hostilities and cease fighting when the enemy wishes. Do you not feel intellectual feeble in having to manipulate information like this?

    Correct. They also, by breaking their alliances, declared war. Most established their own divisional religious and political systems. It was do or die.

    Yes... and?

    No different to any other system at the time, and in many cases far better. Take the 'reconquista' of Spain. Under the Muslims, Christians and Jews lived under varied boundaries of tolerance. Under Christian rule, the Muslims were persecuted and the Jews driven out entirely. The Muslim empires were ahead of the time in this regard.

    Still waiting for that apology.
     
  21. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    The varying aspects of their subjection only further demonstrate my point.

    Actually, the purpose of the wars of apostasy was to enforce the payment of Zakat. Tribes who had willingly paid the tax during muhammads life, stopped doing so after he died. They had really only converted to a cult of the personality of muhammad. Abu Bakr was even more insistant upon the payment of zakat than muhammad was.



     
  22. Khalil

    Khalil New Member

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    This is a very good paper.
     
    MegadethFan and (deleted member) like this.
  23. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand me. Jizya and the doctrine of the dhimmi were contextual policies with a specific objectives relative to the society and political conditions of their age. Consequently they lapsed and waned, as well as escalated and adapted in their application across time and space of Islamic societies. Today the concept is relatively out dated.

    LOL there was more to it than that. The tribes in question had previous been clients of the Quraysh - the enemies of the Muslims. Having their support was vital to the survival of the Islamic regime.

    Which the Muslims interpreted as a breach of alliance that was linked to Islam, not just Muhammad, which is fair enough since most of the contract made such a reference.

    Possibly, like Constantine's reverence of Jesus, but this doesnt really change the reaction of the Muslims.

    Correct, which further emphasis the political implications of the agreement - his interest was the preservation of the ummah.
     
  24. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Youre not contradicting a thing Ive said. Just a more pleasant sounding description of a life of subjection.
     
  25. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Call it subjugation, I call it limited tolerance and pluralism. For its time it was exceptionally good.
     

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