Planned Parenthood is THE Abortion Industry in the US

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by MisLed, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    _____________________


    “Choice” is a complete sham as Planned Parenthood increases its share of nationwide abortions while barely offering any other services. In the latest reported year, they aborted 332,278 innocent lives versus providing only 7,021 women with prenatal care and making a measly 977 adoption referrals. That’s 340 abortions for every 1 adoption referral."

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nat...eases-startling-new-abortion-awareness-video/

    NAACP Downsizes……gee I wonder why...

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1847325/posts

    Black leaders speak out against abortion.

    http://saynsumthn.wordpress.com/201...-genocide-african-american-leaders-speak-out/

    Blacks need to be educated about what has gone on and what is still going on.
     
  2. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Don't put words in my mouth……I never said they dragged….SAnger even said…don't let the blacks know what we are doing. She was sharp and knew how to do it…..put the majority of them on farms….sterilize and pay them to do so…and give them birth control so they WOULD NOT PRODUCE. Why? Because they were weeds…they were not thoroughbreds…they were undesirables.

    She said it not me. And today where are most abortion clinics? In black and minority and poor neighborhoods.

    The birth control was a front to what she wanted to happen.
     
  3. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I am a grandmother. Many years of living and experience and observation have given me the wisdom to discern truth, and there is none in your posts.

    Total HOGWASH!!! There is NO evidence that Sanger opposed blacks in any fashion. Sanger OPPOSED abortion.


    .

    Just as a practical matter, WHO can protect "unborn children"? ONLY the pregnant woman has that possibility. No other entity has the power to control a pregnant woman's body. Talking about government "protecting" unborn life is just empty words, since government doesn't have the ability to protect "unborn life."


    UMMMMM, let me guess.....a person who wants to teach KKK wives about birth control? Who could possibly be in more need of that knowledge? Pulling quotes out of context again, huh?


    Guttmacher says no such thing, is that a mistake or a brazen lie? A majority of abortions in THIS country are performed on caucasian women. The abortion RATE is higher for black women because they have a higher rate of unplanned pregnancy.
     
  4. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to talk about "protection" from a "practical" perspective, it should also be noted that no amount of legislation anywhere can physically protect anyone. End of story. The government potentially "protecting" your average law-abiding citizens from being mugged and/or murdered works the exact same way as the government potentially "protecting" the unborn from abortion. We do not live in the world of Minority Report, therefore it is simply impossible to stop every crime from being committed. What the government does is enact justice for the crimes being committed and attempts to stipulate punishment that will act as a potential deterrent for future would-be criminals. So while you're correct in saying that the government isn't really capable of "protecting" the unborn in terms of women being the ultimate deciding factor on whether or not they carry to term, it's really no different for any other piece of legislation the government has signed into law for the protection of a group of people or all people. But the government can make something illegal and difficult for would-be offenders and they can stipulate that punishments or sentences be served which could potentially deter such an act. And that's all government has ever really been able to do about such matters.
     
  5. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If a law is to have a deterrent factor, law-enforcers must be able to detect and catch law-breakers. In the case of abortion, that is impossible. Probably why laws do not affect the numbers nor rate of abortion.
     
  6. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Denying that Sanger was a racist and that opposed abortion as some have done on this thread is sheer lunacy.

    http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/special_issues/population/the_negro_project.htm
     
  7. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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  8. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    Being able to detect and catch law-breakers is only part of what makes an effective deterrent. Some people are deterred from crime simply because it is against the law. Also, I wouldn't say it's impossible to detect and/or catch abortion offenders--in the hypothetical result that it were made illegal. It would be illegal, therefore no doctor would be able to offer the procedure legally. Medical facilities already undergo inspections, inspections could include searches related to abortion. Also, women would end up turning to so-called "back alley" abortionists. Undercover police work could potentially detect and catch law-breakers in that regard, the same way undercover police work detects and catches people looking for illegal prostitution, drugs, etc. It would become an underground market, just like illegal prostitution, drugs, etc. Detecting it and catching those making financial transactions for abortion would be no different from detecting those offenders making financial transactions for any other illegal market, whether drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc.

    This has only been shown before during a period of time in history, referring to it is the appeal to history logical fallacy. Just because laws haven't affected the numbers nor rate of abortions in the past doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so. All that would be required is different methods of enforcement, such as those which I discussed up above.
     
  9. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would require a little more than that. It would require all women of child-bearing age to register and have a pregnancy test every month. Any woman testing positive would have to report and would be subject to trial if a pregnancy ended without explanation. There are too many avenues for women to abort nowadays. Cross the border and get legal abortions. Many women can afford the travel to Bermuda or the UK. Drugs are available via the internet, oh yes, I guess internet communications will have to be monitored. We know about herbal remedies for unplanned pregnancies, you will need the garden police to monitor yards. Women on Waves will anchor offshore just outside the continental boundaries. The Jane Collective could reactivate. Even with draconian methods of enforcement violating women's civil rights, you will not be able to stop women from aborting. In the past, women were willing to risk death from dangerous illegal abortions to end an unwanted pregnancy, certainly women will be willing to risk prosecution. Oh yes, even if you are willing to violate a woman's bodily privacy to examine for evidence of abortion, you aren't likely to find it, since most methods of abortion appear just like miscarriages.

    You aren't gonna like the world you're living in if you truly attempt to end abortion. Most people aren't willing to go to those extremes, they are happy to just have abortion declared illegal, then they can hide their heads in the sand and pretend they aren't happening.
     
  10. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Yet you continually run from the truth.
     
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  11. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    By your definition of enforcement, not mine.
    That is an irrelevant and non-sensical line of so-called "logic." No law is ever able to "stop" criminals from committing crimes, I've already made that point and made it quite clearly.
    Some will, just like many current criminals are also willing to risk prosecution or death to commit their crimes. Some will not. The responsible ones will probably use protection and/or abstinence unless they're planning on conceiving.
    Again, this is nothing new in the world of law enforcement. Many murders go unsolved due to lack of evidence or a death looking like "natural causes" or "suicide," etc. But I'm not even suggesting violating a woman's bodily privacy to examine for evidence of abortion, I already made my arguments clear and none of the things you've conveniently added in there were part of my initial stipulations. I simply suggested the use of undercover officers, investigation of medical facilities, etc.--basically the same kind of enforcement we employ currently against illegal drugs, prostitution and other illegal markets.
    Again, your argument continues along a line of logic which I've clearly addressed as invalid. No legislation truly attempts to "end" anything. Unfortunately, the cold harsh reality of it is that it's just plain and simple impossible to do. What legislation against abortion would do is simply make it illegal for irresponsible parties to seek an abortion procedure and they would run the risk of interacting with an undercover officer, who would take them into custody upon money changing hands (transaction being made), just like with ANY illicit market. Illicit markets will never be truly eliminated, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still attempt to enact justice.
     
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  12. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    OKgrannie

    And to think of that boggles my mind. Your pro-abortion you condone babies to death…and you say you stand on the truth? I would hate to see what else you condone.


    Then stop by my new thread on Sanger….and address her associations, her quotes and motives. Make your case for this racist there. But then racism is probably ok for you right? Your pro-choice…and that probably would just about encompass everything, right?


    .

    We can make abortion illegal…that is a huge step in helping them stay alive. How many children might be alive today had abortion been illegal? Over 50 millions abortions done since Roe. How many of these women would have had their babies? The woman has control of her body…she can say no to sex or yes to sex. She takes the risk….but also must stand up and take responsibilities for her actions. You think killing should be an option, I don't.


    The KKK are disgusting racists. The women she lectured to….had hoods on Grannie. Oh yes Grannie….you think wearing a hood is good and gee we should be nice and teach them birth control? What if she today would have gone into the Fred Phelps group…..? You would have her head. You obviously support racism from what you have said.


    Guttmaucher is an arm of PP. So they are biased. Read about the man who founded this organization. Yes caucasian women have abortions but the fact is more black babies have been targeted than another color.
     
  13. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    grannie said,
    Abortion was illegal long before it was legal.

    I don't like the world today full of people who pretend to know what truth is. Those that think its much easier to kill than to defend life. We know to much today about fetal development and science has never been clearer as to when life starts. But for some…that simply does not matter. They like playing Russian Roulette….giving the unborn a gun that is fully loaded.
     
  14. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And abortion was legal long before it was illegal. Oh, and that illegal stuff didn't work out too well, so we needn't attempt to go backwards. When life starts?????? Life only comes from life, there isn't a time when something not living suddenly begins living. I don't like it when people pretend to understand science but really only want to use it to make rules for other people.
     
  15. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It has been pointed out by me and others that you are quoting Sanger out of context, and some are pure fabrication. Yet you keep spouting the same old nonsense, so we're done with that subject.


    Making abortions illegal doesn't stop them, doesn't even reduce them. There would be little change in the number of abortions whether they are legal or illegal. Abortion is taking responsibility, and sometimes it is the more responsible choice.


    You aren't making sense. It seems that you would want KKK members to know about and use birth control.


    Guttmacher is not connected to PP. No babies are targeted for abortion. Individual women make that choice, and women of all colors make that choice.
     
  16. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    OKGrannie, your arguments continue to make the claim as fact that "making abortion illegal doesn't stop them or reduce the number of them." This is the appeal to history logical fallacy as I have already pointed out. Simply because something did not work the way it was intended in the past at one point in time or even on different occasions throughout history does not logically lead to the conclusion that it never will. I've already responded to that, but your arguments continue to revert back to that claim. I've also suggested forms of enforcement which are far from "draconian," do not invade a woman's bodily privacy in terms of investigation, etc. yet I've received no response. My proposals would treat abortion just like any other illicit market (which obviously is what things turn to once there is no legal market for them). Am I to take it that because you disagree with my overall stance that we are at a stalemate and that your arguments will continue to appeal to history and other fallacious lines of logic?
     
  17. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have not shown any methods of enforcement which will catch women in the criminal act of abortion and provide evidence for conviction. Can you stop women from crossing international borders for abortion? Can you stop women from receiving drugs ordered from the internet? Can you stop women from using fairly common herbs known to cause abortion? NO? It is easier than ever for women to get illicit abortions. The word will spread. Furthermore, in the past women feared to get abortions because of the danger, now women know better and simply will not be controlled by backwards-thinking lawmakers.
     
  18. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    Sure I have. Just like any illicit market, undercover police and detective work will do the trick. Like undercover vice officers--they don't actually have to catch a "john" having sex with a prostitute nor do they have to actually engage in the act. They simply have to witness a financial transaction being made for a conviction. It would be no different for pregnant women obtaining abortion pills or herbs from dealers or going to back-alley abortionists. They'd have to at least think twice before going through with it, because they could end up interacting with an undercover officer.
    That's not a requirement for law enforcement. We cannot control when criminals cross borders to commit their crimes, as unfortunate as it may be.
    That depends on where they get them from.
    And it's easier than ever for people to hook up with prostitutes and obtain crack, heroin and other illicit market goods and services. Your point is moot and your argument is simply a rephrased version of what you've already been discussing--"it will continue to happen, so we shouldn't do anything about it." That line of so-called "logic" is fallacious. It can be applied to literally any crime, as I've pointed out multiple times. What's important is that it would be illegal on the books and those caught would face charges and be held accountable for their irresponsibility.
    In the event that abortion were criminalized, women seeking abortions would be criminals. And the same logic of "criminals won't be controlled by the law" applies to literally any crime you can think of. Many hard drug users think the same thing about laws against their substance. "Johns" think that their vice service should be legal. They all think the same way about "backwards-thinking lawmakers" and they will all continue to commit their crimes--many of whom will get away with it--but that doesn't mean that we should just do away with the laws they dislike. That's a fairly absurd notion.
     
  19. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The difference is that with abortion, you cannot catch a woman doing it. Do you want to reduce abortion or not? You can't reduce abortion simply by passing a law. Sorry you don't want to consider the past, but the past proves conclusively that you can't reduce abortion with laws. Consider prohibition laws of the past, prohibition, like abortion, was a morality law, and you just cannot enforce morality laws without a consensus of the population supporting the law, and you don't have that with abortion.
     
  20. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    This is getting a little redundant. Law enforcement involving illicit substances, services, goods, etc. does not require "catching someone red handed." End of story. I already explained that. Law enforcement for such illicit market services, goods, etc. simply involves the things I've already proposed, which would work the same way for abortion that they currently work for other illegal markets. Of course I want to reduce abortion. The only way to attempt to do that via politics is to criminalize it. Keeping it as a viable legal option will clearly not accomplish that. Your arguments continue appealing to history. It's not that I "don't want to consider the past," it's that it's not logical to make absolute conclusions regarding the entire future based on past events. We can't even be sure what kind of law enforcement options and technologies will be available in the future, so saying that "it will never reduce abortions ever because it didn't in the past" is simply not a valid premise for an argument. Does this make sense? Appealing to history and events in it for arguments regarding the present and/or future is logically fallacious when done in the manner that your arguments are doing it. Your arguments declare the absolute that it will "never work." Are you clairvoyant? Can you see into the conditional future that doesn't even necessarily exist--as it's based on an outcome that is only being considered and debated? No.

    I'm not really even going to get into discussing the prohibition of alcohol with you, because that is entirely irrelevant and no matter what topic of discussion, people seem to enjoy attempting to use that to bolster their arguments despite the fact that, like I already pointed out, it's logically fallacious to do so. It was a different time, there were different methods of police work in those days, there's really no telling whether or not it would be successful now. And that's not really even the point. We're not talking about that, we're talking about how criminalizing abortion would work. Your arguments conclude that it wouldn't, but the only bit of support you have for that is the appeal to history logical fallacy. I say it would accomplish the exact same thing as criminalizing hard narcotics and prostitution, it would limit accessibility options, women seeking abortions would think twice as they would be running the risk of making transactions with undercover officers, some women would be caught making financial transactions for abortion medications, supplies and procedures and brought to justice, and more importantly, abortion would not be a legally viable option.

    My question to you is "if you are so adamant and convinced that women would be able to abort successfully using miscarriage pills, herbs, etc. if it were illegal, why then are you opposed to criminalizing it? I would think if you're absolutely that confident that the rate of abortions wouldn't change and women could still have just as many successful abortions and hide it all from the authorities and it wouldn't really change a (*)(*)(*)(*) thing other than a signed piece of paper, why then do you even care about its legal status? Your position seems slightly paradoxical in that regard.
     
  21. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    You must have been one of those grannies that single young girls went to when they wanted to get RID of a baby rather than find a babysitter, right.

    I don't want to make rules for you. And i don't think most conservatives do either. Let the states decide. Then you just go wherever the state allows you to kill your babies. I DON"T WANT TO support your actions with my tax dollars or anything else. I don't want you teaching MY children about abortion and alternative lifestyles and whatever else it is leftists ruin kids minds with. DO IT on your OWN dime. NOT mine.
     
  22. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because illegal abortion is more dangerous for women. While I doubt it would ever be as dangerous as it was in history, there is simply no point in making it more dangerous at all. Tourist abortions would be perfectly safe, but those women using drugs obtained from the internet or herbs will have no medical supervision, so if something goes awry, the chance of death increases. Neither do I want women to have to bear additional expense to obtain an abortion, and tourist abortions would be more expensive.
     
  23. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It must be frustrating when the only thing you have left is personal attacks, hmm? You don't think conservatives want to make the rules for everyone, really? Why do they say they are going to "take back" America?
     
  24. Locke9-05

    Locke9-05 Well-Known Member

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    And that's where we disagree. Limiting abortion is more important to me than the safety of women seeking them. If women are going to engage in unprotected sex, then refuse to be held accountable for their actions, and attempt to "terminate" the result, I do not think the government should continue to encourage that with legal abortion.
    If they have to pay more for medical supervision or run the risk of running into an undercover officer or even be at risk for complications due to their own choices, I'd still rather see abortion criminalized.
    Again, it would be no different from any other illegal market. It's expensive and difficult to get hard drugs smuggled across the borders, it's expensive for people to travel to places like Amsterdam for legal marijuana or other places to visit opium dens, there are only a few places in the US in which prostitution is legal, so people travel there. I'm sure all the drug users, "Johns," etc. feel the same way that you do about their vices and such, and many of them still break the law, but those laws haven't changed. So I still stand by my argument. Criminalized abortion would result in it being difficult to find such a service, some women would run the risk of making financial transactions with undercover officers and be brought to justice, some women would be deterred and just grin and bear the pregnancy that they had a part in bringing about and put the child up for adoption, rather than risk legal consequences, and some would continue to successfully have abortions, whether via these miscarriage pills you've talked about, or herbs, etc. and they'd continue to break the law--if it were in place. It would still accomplish the general principles of what we're going for, though.
     
  25. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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