The Hypocrisy Of The Pro Life Movement

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Makedde, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    You raise some very good points. But these inconsistencies are not really an argument against abortion, just the current implementation of it.

    The first one could be solved if we granted men the ability to give up parental rights and responsibilities up to abortion limit, just as women can ("male abortion"?).

    The second discrepancy could be solved by harmonising foetal homicide laws with abortion legislation, so it is not murder before an abortion limit (indeed, foetal homicide laws already vary by trimester).
     
  2. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Killing what, though? Cells? We do that all the time.

    Pro-life doesn't doesn't describe those who are also pro-war, anti-pollution regulation, anti-universal health care, and/or pro-death penalty.

    Pro-choice is an accurate descriptor only for the abortion or other individual issues.

    Pro-abortion is accurate only for those who advocate abortion in every case. Very few do, none that I have ever heard of.

    The most accurate descriptors are:

    "pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights". An accurate and level playing field. Who could argue with that?
     
  3. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I included killing in there more because it's the pro-life side who tend to make the jump from abortion to murder. I personally don't see it that way, but since no abortion debate seems able to be had without someone throwing around the term murder, I thought I'd address it right from the get-go.

    I think these terms are more broad than the abortion debate. As Cady pointed out in her post above mine, being pro-life when it comes to abortion does not mean you are pro-life in general. It's a descriptive term that is mostly used to signify your position specifically on the abortion debate. The same thing is true of pro-choice. Pro-abortion/anti-abortion is probably the closest term you listed that really gets to the heart of the matter, though the label pro-abortion is often used to give the false impression that pro-choicers are in favor of increased abortions, or that they in some way like them.

    I think Cady nailed it when she framed the debate as Pro-abortion rights/anti-abortion rights. I think that most accurately breaks down what the debate is truly about.

    I am curious actually. :)
     
  4. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Get government ( State and Federal) force out of the doctor patient relationship. That is personal and should not be interfered with. With choice comes responsibility and education. Government can get involved with education but should not interfere with liberty.
     
  5. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    I agree with you, and about more medical issues than just abortion. I think government can create laws that protect the privacy and sanctity of the doctor/patient relationship, but that's about as far as they should really be getting involved. Universal health care is another issue, and one I'm sort of split on. I don't believe the individual mandate was the right way to go, but I also see the need for a universal health care system, or at least massive reforms for what we currently have. But, I suppose that discussion is for another forum on the site.
     
  6. DixNickson

    DixNickson Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Could abortion be akin to modern day enslavement, human trafficking ending in profit and a sudden violent end of life for the weak?

    Slaves were/are their Master's objects until "set free" either by their Master's decree or by one's death. The State judicial system has in one respect appointed Mommy to a Plantation Master status. The life and death fate of the developing child within Mommy's womb is subject to Mommy's inclinations, not unlike the United States pre-Civil War master/slave relationship, except slaves were generally more highly prized by their masters than the children of Abortion-minded-Mamas.

    I wonder how long before "harvested" aborted baby organs and tissue become a traded commodity? Years ago I would never thought it possible but with the current administration focused on going green and what I can only categorize as man's inhumanity to man is it only a matter of time?

    Perhaps my "inconsistencies" might collate if you considered that the US Federal Supreme Court found Mommy's "right" to abort on demand but made Daddy financially "responsible" for Mommy's "choice" to allow the child to live when Daddy's choice was death for the child. Why shouldn't Mommy bear the financial responsibility if it is her exclusive choice to let the child live? And conversely, because we are talking about rights, why can't Daddy have his "choice" of life for his child enforced in court over Mommy's desire to kill the developing boy or girl?

    I see judicial hypocrisy when considering what takes place during abortions and criminal homicides involving a mother and her unborn child. The same result...the taking of life but the State makes a distinction between these deaths. One is a right the other is a crime. Guess the unborn have no right to self-defense...but mistreat a dog or cat and you may make the evening news.

    Yeah, I can see the hypocrisy.
     
  7. DixNickson

    DixNickson Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe the question is "who or if not who, what is developing in mother's womb?" Some might surmise that this event, space and time meets a scientific definition for life. Others might be so bold as to suggest that a human's life has begun. Some say it is cells and tissues. I suggest many of us here may have shared in this same process before our birth.

    Absent a traumatic or an intentionally motivated demise we humans tend to begin to die at the molecular level progressing to cellular then tissue to organ to sometimes multi-organ failure then death. Since death naturally progresses along this smallest to larger line I wonder how we start to live?
     
  8. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The developing child within Mommy's womb is developing at the expense of her body. Whose inclinations do you think it should be subject to? Forced pregnancy is slavery of women.

    Without legal abortion, men would be responsible for the government's "choice." Many men play a part in the abortion decision, and would not appreciate your "defense" of them.

    Mommy does bear financial responsibility, based on her income. Why can't Daddy demand that a woman risk her health or life and permanently damage her body with pregnancy and childbirth? Do you really have to ask?

    Terminate the pregnancy of a dog or cat and no one cares, I promise.
     
  9. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's an interesting angle I haven't heard anybody put forth before.

    I think, more than anything else, it deals with mental factors and the development of sentience and self-awareness. While you're right that the process of death begins well before actual clinical death could be said to have occurred, we also rule that people who have suffered brain injuries to the point of being brain dead can be disconnected from life support if that is their wishes or the wishes of whomever they've set in charge of that for themselves. We recognize that biologically, the person's body and organs may still be living, but the actual person, meaning their personality, resides in the brain.

    It goes farther than that though, past the discussions of viability and sentience because we also have to consider the parasitic nature of pregnancy and how much choice a woman has about what is happening inside her body. I do not call pregnancy parasitic to be insulting or to somehow downplay it, it is simply the accurate term to describe what is occurring. It's not even mutual symbiosis, the fetus takes nourishment and other bodily resources from the mother, but provides nothing in return, making it the definition of a parasite. I'm 100% for conversations about preventing unwanted pregnancies, even abstinence only education. I think people should be more responsible as well. But they won't be, and for all the knowledge we have about preventing unwanted pregnancies, there will still be some, and we will always be dealing with the questions of personal rights to your own body.

    My stance on this issue has always been more about that than about questions of birth control, and most certainly not about eugenics, which I do not believe in or promote.
     
  10. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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  11. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    DixNickson said, "Could abortion be akin to modern day enslavement, human trafficking ending in profit and a sudden violent end of life for the weak?"

    Or could it be just old fashion murder?

    She holds the ax.

    The abortion minded society you mean. The woman today has more power over life and death than any man on earth.


    Every pro-choicer out there should be fighting for this to happen. Its the woman's decision….its her body…..part of her they say….so why should she not be able to make a business out of this? Abortion for profit…fetus for sale? And this has happened as PP was caught doing this…and selling fetal body parts.

    She should and it amazes me that more fathers don't step up….they are easily manipulated and obviously the majority just don't care.

    The woman should bear all responsibilities….financial and everything else. The law has made it so that the woman holds all the cards…so why shouldn't she step up to the plate and take control?



    Our laws are wishy washy. Our courts say…no that which is in the womb is not a person…so it can be aborted…only if a hired abortionist does it. Scott Peterson…is sitting on death row…not for one death but for two.


    The entire pro-choice community is hypocritical.
     
  12. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Junkieturtle said,

    Well…it is a human and it is killed against its will. Some on the pro-choice side say….abortion is a tough decision…..tell me what is so tough about it? Our society once said it was murder…and then in January 1973…they all of a sudden said…no abortion is not murder. The unborn had personhood….and in one day lost it. Will rape one day be morally ok and legal? Prostitution? Child porn? Who knows……...



    I think Cady nailed it when she framed the debate as Pro-abortion rights/anti-abortion rights. I think that most accurately breaks down what the debate is truly about.
     
  13. DixNickson

    DixNickson Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pregnancy via impressment would be enslavement, so we are talking about women who have, by threat of force or confinement against their will, been impregnated? That does narrow the discussion quite a bit for me. Of course the perpetrator of this crime should be charged with a number of felonies.The Abortion Mills vs the Baby Mills, though I've heard of one involving a kidnap victim recently aren't most females used as sex slaves and not so much for child bearing? How many illegal Baby Mills are operating in the United States of America?

    Nonetheless Can we agree that enslavement can be an uncomfortable or even an unnatural condition for the slave? And if that can be accepted can we agree that a pregnancy, at least for discussion, may be considered a natural occurrence that can follow a predictable process and outcome but is initially dependent on very specific collaborative personal behavioral choices and interaction for most?

    A woman whose body is enslaved by meth (let's say) has followed a process too but let's draw a distinction between what some see as a disease of addiction and a naturally occurring biological imperative benefitting the perpetuity of humanity. Both the addict and expectant mother were involved in behavior that brought each to their present condition.

    Still the flip side of any right is responsibility for any consequence of exercising that right. Both of our hypothetical women above made choices and were involved in acts that were/are crucial to their physiological status. What is interesting to me is that for one to save herself she must choose life over death while the other because of her transient "condition" has a State supported power (called it a power because it is exercised over another) to choose the death of her closest kin.

    Sincerely asked. How is the woman's body damaged by pregnancy? Can pregnancy be beneficial? Does abortion damage a woman's body or affect her health?

    And lastly regarding a defense...if possessing the wherewithal I would be strongly inclined to defend victims. And though those whose aborted remains, be they surgically dismembered on a slab, in a container, in the bottom of a bucket or discarded in another manner are the primary and the unsalvageable victims they are not always the exclusive victim. For the record I find hurting or mistreating animals personally repulsive so, for me, your promise provides no comfort.
     
  14. DixNickson

    DixNickson Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I get it that you are drawing on your understanding of science, medicine and using critical thinking in trying to determine when life or if not life maybe when personhood begins and/or ceases? I'm drawing on some of the same standards and disciplines.



    Would you say your mental component factor equates to a simple awareness or are you intending this to be oriented to a minimal standard such as person, time and place? Could you see your standard, if enforceable by the State, and used by a governmental employee to assess say a minute old homeostatic infant, would the infant be allowed to exist by that standard? If the standard criteria alone was used to assess a human suffering from Alzheimer disease or one with dementia would the results allow their life to continue? Would reaction to pain stimuli exclusively be given a consideration or should this be chalked up to an autonomic response and not enough awareness to deserve life?



    Ironically it occurs to me as I continue in this discussion that we are discussing some human life as a privilege...for me that is a chilling consideration especially so since the government is taking over healthcare. When government tells you what it is doing is for your own good...beware. I think government, left to its own devices, tends to serve itself.



    Pregnancy, in my opinion, is not a disease or parasitic condition but rather an expected transient biological status that culminates with another opportunity to continue and maybe improve the race. I firmly believe a woman's body is specifically designed for this biological process and is absolutely necessary for mankind's survival. If a woman could not take care of herself and her children looked after her wellbeing has mother become a parasite? Or would her children's attention be a testimony and a benefit for her interest in their life? In my opinion and as much as this may offend many, a mother's commitment to the life of her children is the reason that many of us are here today to argue for or against the life of others.



    Props to all Moms.
     
  15. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    No it was for using the term pro-abortion…never swore at anyone used profanity….simply used the title. There is nothing wrong with labels. I am a Christian….I am a mother…..I am a grandmother…..I am pro-choice…..I am anti-choice abortion….I am a Republican…..I and Conservative. Demonizing? How do I demonize? Do you not like the label? I offer a lot of support and factual information for my position…you just discount anything that puts your position in its place.
     
  16. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    You have offered little to no factual information, most of which is completely anecdotal and pertaining to what you do at work, and because it's a personal experience, it cannot be verified. Swing and a miss....
     
  17. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it is obvious I was talking about women who forced to remain pregnant against their will.

    Interesting that you liken a pregnant woman's actions to those of a criminal.

    Before you determine there is a death, you have to establish there was a life.

    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    loose skin
    permanent weight gain or redistribution
    abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
    changes to breasts
    varicose veins
    scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

    Occasional complications and side effects:

    spousal/partner abuse
    hyperemesis gravidarum
    temporary and permanent injury to back
    severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
    dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    gestational diabetes
    placenta previa
    anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    thrombocytopenic purpura
    severe cramping
    embolism (blood clots)
    medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    hormonal imbalance
    ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    hemorrhage and
    numerous other complications of delivery
    refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

    Less common (but serious) complications:

    peripartum cardiomyopathy
    cardiopulmonary arrest
    magnesium toxicity
    severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    massive embolism
    increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    malignant arrhythmia
    circulatory collapse
    placental abruption
    obstetric fistula

    More permanent side effects:
    future infertility
    permanent disability
    death.

    A wanted pregnancy is beneficial. Pregnancy and childbirth is 13 times more likely to cause death than abortion.


    An aborted embryo/fetus is not a victim. It has no feelings, no consciousness; it loses nothing but potential.
     
  18. DixNickson

    DixNickson Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Morning Cady :)
    Musta been one of those sender/receiver issues. Happens all the time on recreational forums.



    Now who is ignoring the obvious? Conditions and processes were part of my statement, you brought up "criminal."

    I thought most folks for abortion on demand would be more sympathetic to the plight of anyone entrapped by dependency. Sometimes the only choice one has to not be an addict is to never try drugs. The body's homeostasis is changed, the addict is in torment but you feel or would suggest that a meth addict is a criminal because of the addiction? I'm not sure that the addiction is a crime. Unless you mean a crime for treating one's body in a disrespectful or sinful fashion?



    Are you saying that the unborn are dead until delivered? That mommy is carrying a developing cadaver that is resurrected via the birth canal? Your logic provokes unusual conclusions.


    Thank you. You have an outstanding recall. Amazing how many untoward medical conditions are exclusive to pregnancy. Look at all the conditions one would never incur if they avoid conceiving. As for death I, for one, am for avoiding that side effect for as long as I can.


    Really? Have you looked at your posted list?



    Again really? And I was of the understanding that abortion, if successful, caused death one hundred percent of the time. Wait you're gonna bring up that cadaver thing, right? Dang!




    I can agree that the target of an abortion loses...everything.

    And mommy (another victim of abortion) to varying degrees does too.
     
  19. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One who breaks the law is a criminal, whether we sympathize with him or not.

    Please excuse my use of the words "a life" to mean a human being as virtually all pro-lifers do.

    Didn't you (sincerely) ask "How is the woman's body damaged by pregnancy?" I didn't see the word "exclusively" in your post. Must be that sender/receiver thing again.

    Women with wanted pregnancies have the same complications, but they are willing to risk them for their perceived benefit of having a child.

    Again, your sincerely asked question was, "Does abortion damage a woman's body or affect her health?" So no, abortion doesn't cause death to the woman 100% of the time.

    And for the target of an abortion, potential is everything.

    Sincerely asked. How is "mommy" a victim of abortion?
     
  20. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    How do you sleep at night with sociopathic views like this? I've done all I can to get through to you people, but I give up. I'm convinced you're just sick in the head. You have no value for human life. Not even your own children. YOUR OWN CHIILDREN. They mean nothing to you. They are just insignificant blobs of flesh. Is that how you see yourself? Do you see yourself as insignificant and not worth living? Because if you don't love yourself then it would make sense that you can't love something that comes from you. I hope that's not the case. I feel truly sorry for anyone who devalues their own life so much that they cannot even love their own child enough to protect them from death.
     
  21. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    I'd eat a feotus... I've heard they keep you young ;)
     
  22. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I do not have value for human life in itself. I have great value for human mind, and by proxy, great value for human life that is needed for the existence of some already existing mind. A fetus is not such human life. A braindead human is also not.

    I have a mind, so my life is valuable, its not comparable to the life of the fetus before the appearance of mind.

    I dont think there is anything sociopathic about this, I think its sociopathic that someone would force suffering on already sentient life to protect mindless life from killing.
     
  23. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's YOUR view. My view is very well summed up here:

    http://www.philosophylounge.com/abortion-battle-womens-reproductive-freedom/

    I have shown you that brilliant scientists and scholars have debated this issue without resolution for thousands of years. I understand you are firm in your beliefs about abortion. That doesn't make you righteous. It makes you self-righteous.
     
  24. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    10/10 for over-the-top emotional drivel.

    Now, back to reality. You and your side constantly try to tell pro-choicers that they have no value for human life. What's this based on? Abortion alone? How do you get to use one policy position and then spread that out to encompass the entirety of someone's life? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. You would prefer if pro-choicers did not value life at all because then the ever present and so tiring good guys versus bad guys narrative would be all the more profound.

    So go ahead, I'd like you to prove that being pro-choice means you don't value life, at all. Go ahead. This should be good. *Gets popcorn*
     
  25. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    They are sick aren't they? I do this for entertainment…because some people you can change…..this group you will never change…they champion abortion in every way. And who knows what they would do to their own children? God help them.
     

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