Happy Birthday Saint Junipero Serra

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by longknife, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    The little man born this day in the small farming village of Petra on the island of Majorca is probably still seeking to convert nonbelievers in the afterlife. I don't know who or what he's not the patron saint of but, in my humble opinion it should be missionaries. Of all beliefs.

    Some vocal detractors try to belittle his zeal and love for those who came to the baptismal fonts of he and his fellow Franciscan friars. But, no one can diminish his dedication that allowed him to overcome his frailties to walk endless miles to bring hope to those with none and eliminate their sunrise to sunset struggles to simply feed themselves and their young. To be able to protect themselves from storm, flood, and pestilence and live a better life.

    Perhaps looking down upon this world, he shakes his head at the fuss and still begs forgiveness for what he sees as his sins and weakness.

    Read more about Saint Junipero @ Father Serra's Legacy http://lvcabbie.blogspot.com
     
  2. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... a priest that worked for the Spanish Inquisition and forced Native Americans to build his missions while he destroyed their culture. What a guy.
     
  3. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    That being the case, why did thousands of American Indians willingly come to those missions? And a number of tribes actually begged the friars to build missions in their homelands?
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    You've posted tons about this guy. Do you have a personal link to him?
     
  5. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    It simply came to me one day that what I'd been taught about he and his fellow friars made no sense to me. How did these guys build those big and complicated missions with such grace and beauty?

    So, I started researching them. And I learned that almost everything I'd been taught about the history of California where I was born and grew up was either wrong or simply slanted. Most history was written by a Midwestern Protestant who hated Papists, as he called them, and made most of his comments biased against them. This is what has gotten into the school books.

    I started to write about what I'd learned. Then, I turned that into historical friction in what I called Father Serra's Legacy - the truth about California history to include the good AND the bad.All three novels have been published and are available on Amazon.com.

    I am writing a BIG novel about one of the explorers of California - Captain/Governor Fernando Rivera. I am also writing a Novella about an 11 year old boy and the founding of Mission San Gabriel Archangel.

    So yes, I guess I DO have a personal connection to the good friar. (In spite of sainthood, I'm sure that's how he wants people to see him)
     
  6. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Missionaries brought the pox, then promised the indigenous people the only way to survive the pox was to convert ... real heroes.
     
  7. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    That is EXACTLY the warped history I have corrected in my stories.

    California natives had a number of diseases including STDs that killed a good percentage of them long before the arrival of Europeans.

    "Missionaries brought the pox" is the biggest lie of all. Their vows of celibacy kept them from having sex with the natives and as there were always at least two of them at each mission, they watched over one another to ensure they didn't break their vows.

    The natives were also very sexually active and not limited by marital relationships as many did not recognize a limited relationship between a single man and a single woman. Thus, THEY were the ones who spread diseases among themselves.

    Yes, smallpox and measles came with the Spanish and the natives had no natural immunity to them. But, at the same time, many Spaniards and Mestizos who came to California had a natural immunity which they passed on to the children they had with native women they married according to church custom.

    As for converting. The promise was for a life after death. Up until then, the natives lived day to day, always believing that when they died it was over. And many voluntarily came to the missions to find a way of life where their entire life from sunup to sunset was seeking to find food and survive.
     
  8. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    You need to make a trip to the Heard Museum in Phoenix, if you think that American Indian culture was limited to finding food
    or did not have a rich culture including afterlife beliefs.

    If God was serious about saving souls, He would have provided the teachings of Christ without the natives having to endure the
    plagues of the missionaries.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    What obnoxious twaddle. How dare "missionaries" impose their awful superstitions on perfectly happy and self sufficient peoples - who were effectively helpless to resist. Utterly destroying their culture in the process. We can guess how they'd feel if a bunch of satanists started messing with their lives (under the pretext of helping).
     
  10. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    I WAS NOT referring to peoples like the Pima, Papago, Navajo, Hopi, or Zuni who all had excellent agrarian cultures. I WAS talking about people living in the Californias who knew absolutely nothing about raising crops or taming animals.
     
  11. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    And YOU WERE THERE to judge what type of life they lived! And, as the missionaries came with no more than 10 soldiers to face natives in the hundreds, you think they could not have stood up and fought for themselves?

    There was ONE native rebellion in 1737 and the only reason the Uchiti lost was their lack of organization.
    Later, in upper California in 1824, there was an uprising in Lompoc that failed because the mission Indians led the small group of 5 soldiers to the leaders of the uprising.

    If YOU are going to spout your twaddle, at least do some research and give us FACTS not your progressive garbage.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    'Progressive garbage' was exactly what your missionaries visited on people who didn't ask for it, and couldn't stop it.

    I would respect missionaries if they didn't corrupt and disenfranchise native peoples. If they had simply helped, without changing culture or introducing alien religion, there would be more intact ancient cultures left, and far fewer disenfranchised individuals. The damage done by early missionaries in my own country is still being felt. I've no doubt it's the same in yours. No one has the right to arbitrarily destroy another's culture - to do so is an act of aggression and hatred.
     
  13. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    It is quite clear to me - and everyone else - that you consider yourself a real expert on the natives who lived in California before the arrival of the Spanish. That being the case, perhaps you can answer some questions for us - WITHOUT USING A SEARCH ENGINE! :roll:

    In what year did the Spanish first seek to colonize the present day state of California?

    How many different linguistic groups did they encounter?

    How many organized tribes were there?

    Can you name the tribes that lived around San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco?

    Do you know what "pismo" is? And what it was used for? By what tribe? Living where?

    Can you tell us whom and when the lines were delineated as to which tribes were to live where? And by whom? Can you tell us who ordered the California natives to be rounded up and restricted to reservations?

    Do that without resorting to a search engines and perhaps I will consider you informed enough to have a basis for your "opinions."

    :salute:
     
  14. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    Ah, excuse me crank, where's your response? Are you still searching to see if you have a response?
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Hi :)

    Haven't been here for a few days .... you can relax. Will get to your post in a minute.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I know nothing about your disenfranchised peoples. I do know plenty about the indigenous peoples' experience in this country, and it's a sad sad tale of white men presuming to know what's good for the 'savages'. My lack of knowledge of your history isn't pertinent though, since few missionaries anywhere offered unconditional help. Some Jesuits did, but these can't really be described as missionaries. They were more like works-driven free agents.

    The point I'm making here is that men making value judgments on other cultures (no matter how 'bad' these cultures seemed to be to such men) is an act of hatred. You must hate a thing to feel such an overwhelming need to change it. These missionaries could just as easily have simply offered practical help and stayed well out of the cultural side of things, but they didn't. They corrupted extant and ancient cultures. All based on the profoundly arrogant notion that their ways were superior.

    Ask yourself how would you enjoy having a completely alien peoples rip your culture out from under you, then force you to become dependent on them for all your basic needs, then tell you (directly or indirectly - it matters not) that you won't continue to receive help unless you adopt their alien ways. Because that's exactly what missionaries do - or used to do. I don't like to think that there might still be such things happening.
     
  17. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    All of that tripe and YOU STILL DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

    Why? Because it's obvious you know nothing about the FACTS of history because you prefer your own version that fits your leftist/progressive beliefs.

    Trying to convince people like you of the truth is a waste of effort. At least others may be reading and will learn.
     

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