False Abortion Presumptions

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by MegadethFan, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A human fetus is no more a "human being" than a human liver is a "human being."

    To say otherwise is to say a caterpillar, cocoon, and butterfly are the same and whether that is your intent or not the result is to tilt the conversation.

    If you want a link I suggest you look up human and fetal physiology. Till then
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus
     
  2. Flintc

    Flintc New Member

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    I think this misses the point. Whether a fetus is alive or whether it's human are well-defined issues suitable to empirical test. And sure enough a fetus is both.

    Whether a fetus is a PERSON is categorically different. Instead of being a matter of observation and test, this is a matter of social construction and protocol. For pragmatic reasons of social convenience, to minimize conflict and damage, we select essentially arbitrary ages and POOF at the stroke of midnight someone is eligible to drive, to vote, to drink, to be drafted, to receive medicare or Social Security, to lose a child discount or gain a senior discount, etc. There is nothing inherent in the person to establish such designated ages, except insofar as they seem to work because people agree that they are workable.

    So designating a "magic age of personhood" doesn't really depend on anything biological, like conception or "quickening" or even birth. It relies on social agreement, which in turn generally relies on what minimizes conflict and damages to society at large.

    What makes abortion so difficult is the intractable, even fanatical, desire on the part of those who SHOULD be disinterested and uninvolved, to force undesired consequences on others. Effective social constructs and protocols require some minimum level of tolerance for the concerns of others. Those unable to find any tolerance inside themselves thus undermine the principles any society needs in order to work well.
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    You can add to that list

    Making it illegal will reduce the number of abortions with the corollary that "All you have to do to stop abortions is make it illegal"

    People who believe this seem to get upset for some reason when I point out that I live in a state where abortion is illegal and our abortion rates rival the USA

    It is a simple straightforward issue

    BaaaaaarrrrrPPP! No! Wrong answer!

    It is anything BUT straightforward. Each case is individual with complex multiple issues impacting it. Even the issue of health of the woman is NOT straight forward

    Exceptions can be made in law for life threatening conditions

    Okay then Who decides? Who decides when a woman's life is under "enough threat" to allow an abortion

    Women who get abortions should be punished

    Ummm - yeah! So the poor woman who has been told she has terminal cancer, and the pregnancy will accelerate her death, so she has an abortion - SHE is going to face the same legal nightmare as the 14 year old runaway who is pregnant by her "stepfather"?

    I could go on...........
     
    MegadethFan and (deleted member) like this.
  4. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    But, why is it wrong to kill an innocent human being? This is something lifers fail to explain or rationalize.

    cause it's a BABY, INNOCENT by our standards? Precious life that has the right to LIFE?
     
  5. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    No, that is not how it happens

    Mostly at that stage the woman WANTS that baby so we go all out to save her and the baby. Having said that we have bloody near lost both in the past and will get to that point again in the future.

    The overwhelming reason for late term abortion is this

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hQHLJTGdTU"]Anencephaly - YouTube[/ame]

    It is actually a "pro-life" site so do not feel afraid to link in but I warn you the pictures are upsetting for a lot of people

    Conditions incompatible with life - and until you have studied embryology you do not really understand what the term "mother nature can be a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)" really means
     
  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Then why does God kill so many?

    up to 70% of fertilised ova do not implant or are miscarried in the first few days
     
  7. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    why do you think God is doing it?
     
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Could be mother nature - whatever

    Whatever - what is you explanation for the 70% failure rate?
     
  9. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    gotta link for it?
     
  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yep!! Hmmmm - Wiki has the rate at 30-60% but the common quote i have seen elsewhere is 50 - 70%

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_pregnancy_controversy
     
  11. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    I don't see what is so startling about these figures. Does that 'failure rate' include sexually INactive girls and women? And when you get right down to it, how do these authorities come up with these figures? How could they possibly know such a thing. Oh i see. It says 'suggest'. That's a far cry from actual undeniable facts.
     
  12. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    So? If I eat a key to a car, does that make it my property henceforth?

    No, it isnt.

    A logical argument, symbolism does not make.

    You didnt answer my question. What's so special about being detached from your mother literally?
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Admittedly that is an estimate and it goes across all women, all ages

    It is an estimate because we do not know exactly how many failures there really are but the high side comes from IVF studies while the low side is "best guess"

    There are a LOT of factors affecting implantation - which is why some authorities suggest making conception be equal to implantation
     
  14. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    You have missed my point entirely. Let me put it this way, is the fetus a human/ is it human?
     
  15. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Why does it have a right to life? THIS is the question.
     
  16. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps we should not assume it is "innocent" because it has actually invaded the "home" of another human

    In which case it could be considered the same as any home invader and in such cases the US "Castle law" could be enacted
     
  17. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    It didn't invade. It was placed there. Perhaps you should think about executing the incubator and the inpregnator for Invasion.

    Perhaps the government can do another one of its Economic Programs: Condoms for Clunkers.
     
  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Place there by whom?

    If the woman has not consented to pregnancy then it is against her will
     
  19. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    If she consented to sex, then she is responsible.
     
  20. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    No, sorry but consent to sex is not the same as consent to pregnancy

    and why is SHE responsible and not the male?
     
  21. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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  22. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    As a woman don't you know that sex means potential pregnancy. What? Is this the first you heard. Life isn't fair. YOu can have unprotected, indiscriminate sex but you're gonna mess up your life and everyone around you. So. If you're gonna have sex. BE RESPONSIBLE.
     
  23. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Which can include ending an unplanned pregnancy.
     
  24. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Well, until it comes out, yes.

    Nobody can open up your body to remove it without your permission.

    yes it is. You must surely know that it is.


    I didn't claim it did.

    I gave the reason why cutting the cord is considered a symbolic moment.



    Because it's then you become a person and you are no longer a foetus.
    A citizen of your country of birth with the same rights as other citizens in your age group. Those rights do not limit the rights of anyone else.
     
  25. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    So your whole definition of "person" is based on symbolism.
     

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