That abortion is morally acceptable.

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by MegadethFan, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean? If you mean, abortion is the killing of a human being, then yes.

    That was not my argument. Try again. My justification is not that they cannot object rather that they dont care at all in the first place - they have no concept of their own existence. This is BEFORE abortion is carried out. I dont see how your "a murder victim if its murdered before they have knowledge of them about to die" is in any way a fair example, assuming the murder victim is a being with self-awareness and consciousness.

    LOL
     
  2. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    won't. I worry about you people though. This abortion issue is a real problem for you if one goes by the number of topics you all start on it. Nothings gonna change.

    by the way. Have you any experience with abortions? had one or your girlfriend had one? of course you don't have to answer but it just makes me wonder why you keep defending it.
     
  3. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    Well a murder victim doesnt care if its going to die randomly, because it doesnt know its going to die, however if you tell them they are going to die they abject. You can compare this to a fetus, because they do not know they are going to die. However the difference between the two is that if the unknowing victim is murdered the criminal is still charged, but if the fetus/baby is murdered, its considered legal. I accually believe abortion is reasonible to a point, but not beyond that point. Im just debating for fun.
     
  4. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The idea that a fetus has no interest in its own life assumes facts that have not been entered into evidence and which can be logically disproved.

    The "interest in life" to which you refer is nothing more than a fear of death/pain/suffering experienced by all sentient beings. Even the simplest of multi-celled organisms will attempt to flee a perceived danger. That a creature does not want to "die" is no more a sign of intellect than an amoeba's ability to procreate via mitosis.

    If by "interest in life" you mean the ability to contemplate the reality and meaning of one's existence then your universe of people eligible for "moral" termination grows to include small children, the mentally ill and disabled, elderly people suffering from dementia and any number of people for whom the meaning of life and death does not exist.

    The purpose of all living things from the simplest single cell organisms to the most complex animals is identical. To survive and reproduce.

    As social animals humans survive by creating social groups to birth, protect, and raise the young. As such, the entire social group has an interest in the survival of every fetus and the fetus itself has a biological interest in its own survival.

    Additionally:

    You propose to know what a fetus is or is not thinking without introducing any evidence to support the claim. That a baby, immediately upon birth seeks both air and food demonstrates its interest in its own survival even if it does not demonstrate an understanding of the meaning, at least in your view, of that survival.

    The foundation of your argument is flawed therefore the conclusion is faulty.

    Morality is always relative. If killing is wrong why is killing a cow or even a celery plant for dinner OK? If lying is wrong why is Santa clause OK?

    I happen to believe abortion is immoral.

    The fact that I would not force that belief on anyone nor would I support the government enforcing my particular view on anyone does not change the morality of the action.

    To make the claim that abortion, except to save the woman's life, is moral is, in itself, amoral.
     
  5. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Why wont you? Because of one typo? That's the weakest cop out I've heard in ages, possibly ever.

    What do you mean?

    Yes, but I'd rather keep my personal life to myself.

    I defend it because it is moral and I hate to see liberties infringed upon by the irrational such as lifers.
     
  6. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    No you have misunderstood my point. The difference between a fetus and a murder victim (assuming they are a grown person) is that the latter has an interest in being alive where as the former doesnt. Get it?

    But 'knowing you are going to die' is not the basis for my principle. It is the interest in being alive that counts.

    See above.
     
  7. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    How sad….that the person who is innocent of all charges is the one killed for no good reason. It is biologically not less a person than anyone who is born. it has DNA…fingerprints…heart beating…it just can't do adult things…but then a newborn can't either. When you were born what could you do that showed intelligence? Could you give me say a list of ten?


    WEll someone who is in a coma….do they have an interest in living? Someone under the knife in an operation? The mentally challenged? For you to ASSUME…that any of these has no reason no want to live…is what? You tell me. We are talking about rights…to live. You don't think human beings in the womb have importance.
    I am wondering if you have children of your own…...
     
  8. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    I know abortion first hand….I had one when I was younger.

    It has a way of changing your life…and the way you feel about yourself. See….abortion might be legal…but its still considered immoral even by those who condone it and want it legal. Its not a subject that any woman who has had one wants to talk about..usually. Have you ever heard a woman say…"Cant have lunch Monday…getting an abortion"…or your at a party and someone tells you that you look like you don't feel good and you say…"awe its nothing just had an abortion yesterday and I am a bit crampy." ?

    No its the one surgery that no one wants anyone to know they had…women suffer silently. That is why no statistic is a true one. Women lie about the abortions if they are involved in the conversation. I suffered for years…suicidal thoughts. it almost ruined my marriage…not because my husband was upset I had one…but because I was losing it. It is the one decision you make that you can't change. Abortion is killing a living human being. And when you look at it that way…whether at the time you get it…or you mature and you learn more about fetal development…it is there….in pictures, on the news…in discussions, debates…it forever pulls at your heart.

    Liberties infringed…..well I infringed on my childs life so that he/she could not have the liberty you talk about. I took it away….for no good reason.

    Thank Jesus…for saving me…and turning my life around. I witness and work in this field because of a promise I made to God…to stand up for His innocents.
     
  9. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    See…you say abortion is moral…but you just don't want to talk about how it affected you. LOL

    Which proves every point that I have made or going to make about abortion and why people just want to keep it hush…..its a murder we just don't want to face or talk about.
     
  10. AshenLady

    AshenLady New Member Past Donor

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    One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    You don't hang out your dirty laundry for the world to see.

    Abortion is a necessary evil...for the women who need them.

    It's an open and shut case.

    Therapeutic abortions are therapeutic.

    They are therapeutic to the desperate women who might need one; some day, some time, some place and all that jazzzzzzz...:judge:
     
  11. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    Is abortion dirty ashen? Come on people tell others about just about every other surgery…why not abortion, its legal isn't it?

    Is there something wrong with abortion ashen?

    And killing was a necessary evil too wasn't it?
     
  12. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    Killing is a necessary evil, killing isnt the same as murder, its usally in self-defense.
     
  13. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    So how does the life in the womb… defend itself?
     
  14. Thinker

    Thinker New Member

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    im on your side dude, but yes planning the death of a fetus would kinda be murder.
     
  15. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    partial breakthrough here. It's dirty laundry. It's true then. Women who have had abortions do not want to share that information openly. Why is that? It's because of the pain and regret involved as Churchmouse has stated. You pro-death guys just don't want to admit that. I can't figure that out either. Is it misery loves company?
     
  16. Patriot911

    Patriot911 New Member Past Donor

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    I have one question. Why is it you assume that your belief that life of any kind only acquires value where it has an interest in its existance is fact? This isn't a fact. This is your opinion and not one shared by all. When you start off pretending opinions are facts, you can't help but come up with a flawed premise.
     
  17. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Killing a foetus is morally acceptable because it occupies the body of a woman who is a person with rights.
     
  18. Patriot911

    Patriot911 New Member Past Donor

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    So if you get shoved into someone else you suddenly lose all rights as a human being? Interesting concept. I hadn't heard that one before.
     
  19. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    What I argue is that in pursuing an interest we give it value ourselves. Since other beings may have the same interest, if we pursue our own we ought to help the other entity pursue it as well. So if we take the mother and the fetus, the mother has a desire to live and so she acts to fulfill that goal. The fetus does not have an interest in anything and does not act to do anything as a result. Consequently the mother need not protect the life of the fetus because it does not value its own life. Does this make sense? This is the "fact" we can derive from the detached analysis - that value can only be placed on certain action where we give them value ourselves. This is not an opinion - it is a readily observable fact we can deduce by thinking rationally.
     
  20. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    My personal life is exactly that - personal. What it entails has no bearing on my moral position.

    How is it murder? Murder is a legal concept. In most places abortion is not murder. Furthermore I do not want people to be hush about it, I want people to seriously engage with such discussions - but that does not require they lay out their personal lives for everyone to poke at. That is not only pointless to the actual discussion if it is irrelevant to furthering it, but is often harmful.
     
  21. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    No they just dont want people to know. Are you really that hung up about people's private lives? I would like it if people openly said 'I had an abortion and I'm proud I can freely say that.' But the real reason is probably that they are just naturaly prone to be cautious of letting others know perosnal details about their life.

    If someone has a problem or not with their actions they have NO responsibility to let others no about it. I dont know why you feel it is so important to get people to talk about their sexual experiences, but they are irrelevant and I feel the only reason you do ask is so you can manipulate such details to emotionally hinder someone. Since you ask, I have never got a girl pregnant. There was one girl I slept with who was worried she might become pregnant, but she was fine. How do any of these details impact on what I have said?

    If you have a problem with abortion, state it, because I dont see what it is.
     
  22. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah because that happens a lot :rolleyes:
     
  23. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    What women do with their bodies is none's business so who cares if it is moral ?
    Morals are social values while an abortion is a personal issue, why it is never discussed if it is moral for a man to pee sitting ?
     
  24. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    That makes no sense. To say what women do with their bodies is only their business IS a moral judgment.

    You clearly do not understand what is moral and what is not. You very much could discuss the morality of peeing sitting down, we've just judged that morally acceptable just as we have individual freedom. Morality should never be just "social values", though they do often bleed into ethical debates.
     
  25. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

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    No it isn't since i am not judging others for doing things that don't concern me , think of it like gay sex : if it isn't in your ass then why care?


    Every time you pee living cells are leaving your body and die , not to mention living bacteria so potentially it has the same effect with an abortion.
    I belong to a bdsm society and we often have group sex , it is perfectly moral for us to do so yet we function inside a society that will not tolerate even a glimpse of this activity . You see morals are multilevel themselves and they scale differently depending on who and how many you deal with , if flexibility is analogous to the complexity and the size of the group(s) we deal with then down to a personal level they should be absolutely stiff so what a woman does with her body is none's business.
     

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