Why isn't the GOP message sticking ?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Channe, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    It didn't make anything better, it made it worse.You would know that, if you understood cost allocation.

    Yes it matters how we do it, process matters. Because if you don't care how, chances are, you're making things worse.

    And that's exactly what the ACA is. It's worse.

    You've also now admitted you're a cronyist, a corporatist. At least I now know where you stand.
     
  2. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you YOU know better (absolutely so) than all the other experts who disagree with you? Who are YOU?!
     
  3. justoneman

    justoneman New Member

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    Because the message of the Democrats panders to a majority of the people who vote now. The people who want food stamps, welfare, section 8 housing, free cell phones, free daycare will vote for the Democrats by vast majority. People who have friends and family who are illegal aliens and want them to have amnesty from their crimes, will vote Democrat.

    The message from the GOP is generally about picking yourself up by your own bootstraps.
    When illegal aliens get the right to vote, this message will never win another election. Even without that, we have reached the tipping point. We are going to out socialize the Europeans now.
     
  4. leftysergeant

    leftysergeant New Member

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    At least the for-profit maggots can't drop you when you get too expensive to cover at an obscene profit.

    What had the GOP ever offered other than HSAs?
     
  5. leftysergeant

    leftysergeant New Member

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    If there are enough of those to tip an election it is only because "free market" capitalism has failed badly and needs to be tossed on the compost pile.

    As opposed to the people who want a big surplus labor pool whom they can bully into working for far less than a citizen will accept, under threat of deportation if they complain.

    Delusional twaddle.

    Paranoid and delusional.

    Seeing how well that has worked out for Europe, or at least worked before conservative blockheads like Thatcher and Merkel arose, what is the problem with that?
     
  6. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    For now and for me... it boils down to the simple reality that the STAUNCH anti-Obamacare people on the "Right", need to come up with something better than:

    1. Ripping-off people who need care.

    2. Letting people DIE just because they cannot afford to get care.
     
  7. malignant

    malignant New Member

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    The problem is globalization, America and Europe didn't have to have their labor compete with billions of people who would starve to death without work. Low-skilled workers are paid a premium in Europe in America, because up until now there was no way for the rest of the world to compete for our labor and resources, they just starved to death or died of malaria. They won't have to much longer, what implications do you think that has?
     
  8. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    You mean the ones who worked for Big Pharma, who, FYI, lobbied FOR Obamacare? And which of course, you don't find at all strange.

    Or United Healthcare's support. Or America's Health Insurance Plans support. No, nothing strange here, keep ignoring the man behind the curtain.

    For F*ck's sake just read on it, and stop being such a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) partisan yes-man.

    Someone who can read a balance sheet, and I know who benefits from this, that's why they lobby for it, that's why they spin it.
     
  9. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Even THAT can be mitigated to a reasonable degree; not all human beings agree that we must compete with all others across the globe.

    The paradigm that is the "Global Economy" doesn't necessarily have to stay the same for ALL time (and it probably won't).

    At some point, this nation WILL enact policies and employment scenarios that will benefit the citizens here most; I can almost guarantee you that foreign interests and corporations will not forever influence the will of the people here as much as they do at the present time.

    No, I'm not talking "isolationism", but a nation significantly more discerning about policies which affect its people. (It's coming.)

    Eventually, those nations will also fend for themselves more than they do. There will always be international trade, but I don't see where it is an absolute must that America would depend upon other nations for its products as much as we do today. Sooner, rather than later, Americans will realize that doing for ourselves HERE, is more of a win-win scenarios for themselves and their children.
     
  10. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I heard all of that well BEFORE the ACA was passed. And not being 'new' to politics, I realized that extra BS would be attached to ANY law passed.

    And that will likely true of any law, dealing with anything else that comes down the pike (at least and until we get more of the money OUT of our elections and politics).

    I KNOW that the ACA isn't perfect; yet I'm certain it is better than nothing (and nothing is exactly what the "Right" has offered). If I had MY WAY, I'd call for "Single Payer", fully socialized healthcare as quickly as we could implement it.

    The ACA is now law, let's get on with making it better than it is.
     
  11. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    And they'll gladly do it, because the Government is FORCING people to consume their product. Businesses will GLADLY trade a portion of their freedom, in exchange for the Government policing their market share, guaranteeing them business and protection from their competition.

    And that's EXACTLY what happened here, THAT'S why United Healthcare supported it, THAT'S why America's Health Insurance Plan's, the insurance industries largest lobbying group., lobbied FOR it.

    Don't talk to me about "for-profit" maggots, when you're their willing patsy.
     
  12. justoneman

    justoneman New Member

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    Sorry but insurance companies do not support Obamacare. They may be slightly participating in it as the whole thing moves forward, hoping in all hope that it falls apart before destroying the free market healthcare environment completely. If it all continues as planned, the insurance companies will bail out of providing health insurance all together. Insurance companies do not back what will result in their demise.
     
  13. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    No, NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

    It is not the imperfect solution, IT DOESN'T EVEN ADDRESS THE PROBLEM! IT COMPLETELY F*CKING IGNORES IT AND HELPS THE PERPETRATORS GET AWAY WITH IT.

    That is NOT the same as "imperfect", that is A FAILURE, that is becoming PART OF THE PROBLEM.

    Reading the content of the bill, you can only be left with impression that the F*CKING POLTICANS WHO WROTE IT, either DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, or they are WILLINGLY MAKING IT WORSE. They attack SYMPTOMS not CAUSES, they PRETEND to be making Healthcare more "affordable" when they instead take actions that will make it MORE EXPENSIVE. THEY F*CKING CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.


    IT IS NOT "achieve by any means" There is a RIGHT way, and there is a WRONG way, and this WAS WRONG, PERIOD.

    Progressives can see it, so I know this isn't a case of what "conservatives don't like". It's you sticking to a party line, because, words.
     
  14. leftysergeant

    leftysergeant New Member

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    Totally united in their lunacy, actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Good riddance to the for-profit parasites.
     
  15. malignant

    malignant New Member

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    I hope you're right, but I doubt it. Consumers have been casting their vote for years for globalization, few people will pay the extra 20% or so it would cost for something to be American Made. Think about it, someone in China can make an Iphone and then put it on a boat or plane and ship it across the world, then pay a steep tariff tax on the import, cheaper than someone can make it here. It doesn't bode well, and canceling out competition causes complacency (which is running rampant here), which in turn causes someone else who is under intense competition to rise above them by working harder due to necessity.

    At best, even if we were able to insulate ourselves, it would be hypocritical of most. Americans are the 1% in the global economy, even the low-wage earners at the bottom. BILLIONS and BILLIONS of people would love to trade places. We would just be a wealthy entity protecting our wealth, which is exactly what we demonize our 1% for doing. Doesn't that hit home to anyone? When someone feels they have it bad compared to someone else (say our min. wage workers compared to our CEOs) they raise a stink and talk about all the ways to stop income disparity, but when the tables turn and our min. wage worker is in the 1% compared to BILLIONS of people starving to death or dying of malaria, we change our stance: Oh this is our wealth, we worked hard for it, why should they benefit from our hard work? It's the exact same argument we hate to hear from our CEOs.
     
  16. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    I've been around a long time. It may not be "GOOD ENOUGH" (and I can agree, to a point). Still, the reality is that we must advocate to make changes over time... just as Americans have had to do about concerning just about everything else.

    Maybe I see the LONG curve as being viable, because I'm a gay, Black American. There is a great deal that I didn't see improved or fixed for most of my life.

    And I also remember a bunch of closed-minded, intransigent fools fighting Mrs. Clinton on healthcare decades ago.

    Something needed to be done. And that we waited until the 21st century to gt on with it, probably didn't help a lot.

    So, here we go. It's not the first time we've gone forward with laws that were less-than-ideal... and it won't be the last time.
     
  17. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    Oh yes they do.
    Sure, they may at times seek to make exceptions just for themselves, but corporations have done that with regulations they lobbied for, for decades.
     
  18. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot will depend upon how the "suffering" (due to the globalization) is defined. Right now, the guys with the money are pulling the wool over the eyes of people. They won't be able to do that for ALL time.
     
  19. malignant

    malignant New Member

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    We are the guys with all the money ... maybe we've pulled the wool over our own eyes ...
     
  20. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    You and I aren't the 1%. Our only power is in our numbers. If we don't help ourselves by using our vote, nothing will change.
     
  21. justoneman

    justoneman New Member

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    Exceptions? Are you confused? The exceptions are for various groups that wish to retain private insurance, for as long as they can. Groups like government employees and Unions. The insurance companies do not get exceptions. The insurance companies will bail out because they will no longer be able to make their modest earnings. Yes modest because the insurance companies do not make a large margin as many people thing. Their margins have not been the reason for ever growing healthcare costs and so there will be no savings when the government takes over after the void created by the insurance companies departure. Believe me when I tell you that the amount of waste created by the government managing the country's healthcare will be tenfold.
     
  22. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    You have not proven that. And I've seen private entities NOT be more efficient or cheaper than government. I think you are fear-mongering.
     
  23. Alaska Slim

    Alaska Slim Active Member

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    No, your evaluation of it is what is not "good enough". THAT is what I meant.

    ... It's not making changes. It's just increasing market barriers, subsidizing certain plans, and handing more of said market to the Cartels.

    It won't lower prices. It won't eliminate the uninsured. It won't fix at all what has put the market into crisis. No, it doesn't even create "starting points" for any of it, so don't give me that sh*t.

    ... There is no long curve, just prices that will continue to rise, and by effect, limit access. People will act just the same as they do in Massachusetts, refuse to buy a plan and just pay the penalty.

    So, if your "long curve" was instead increasing tax revenue by taxing the middle class some more, good for you.

    Her plan was no better. Same problem: it addressed symptoms, not causes, and would have made the causes worse.

    That doesn't mean you do anything and don't pay attention to the fall out

    ...

    One more time.

    It's not just "imperfect", it's not just "less than ideal".

    It has made itself PART of the problem, it has ENCOURAGED the cause that is making healthcare unaffordable. It has made the system WORSE.

    Good intentions does not a good law make, good process does, and this doesn't have it.
     
  24. malignant

    malignant New Member

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    We are though, the average household income in the US is just shy of $50,000/year. The global average household income is ~$7,000. Where do you think that puts us?
     
  25. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    We'll see. The folks on the "Right" fear-mongered, lied and complained about this for so long... I think many have freaked-out over little.

    We'll see.
     

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