Germany Puts Forward End Of British Pound -- UK Goes Crazy:

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by janpor, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    It appears Cameron has won us the right to dilute the working time regulations. There's an attack on the working poor, who will bear the brunt of these "rights".
     
  2. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    -
    Anybody classing themselves as part of the working poor should be made to work incessantly and pay a Lazy Person Tax .
    Punishment for low self esteem and no positive goals .
    And if we re-introduce Saturday market place punishment in the stocks , they should always be hammered but encouraged to sing the National Anthem .
    Double for Foreigners including the Welsh and Scotties . Not the Irish because they would enjoy all the attention .
    Quote from David Millipede addressing the TUC .
     
  3. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    :p

    <<<Mod Edit: Personal Attack Removed>>>


    Now the working poor are a recognises and substantial sector of the community and that will increase as employers use and manipulate the economic crisis to eradicate employment rights. I don't see that as an occasion for levity. But then I am a Scot and you know what we're like about the good of the community as a whole, before the good of global corp piranhas.
     
  4. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    I was banking on someone like a Scottie having a vague idea of what is going on --- a little English blood has trickled through over the centuries .
    But Irony , satire and surrealism -- let alone real black humour --- are beyond the comprehension of the vast bulk of posters here .
    When you look at the intellectual poverty on this site , there is really only levity left over as an ingredient for sanity preservation .


    Let's take this Topic as an example .
    Nobody -- let alone a German -- has suggested putting an end to the British Pound . I , along with others , could put stronger arguments for Germany leaving at some point and using a new Euromark ( a PC version of the Deutsch Mark ).

    Some people can see the EU being completely restructured at some distant point after the present Euro Zone has completely sunk . Within some loosely knit community of twenty something countries , there might be a NEW currency that works for " Northern " countries like Germany , the UK and france BUT is not the same for others -- like current so called PIIGS countries , for example .
    And that could happen . But frankly it is a million miles away presently ( not kilometres ) and our first priority is helping rescue drowning Zoners .
    Compassionate British leading again !!!!!!!!!
     
  5. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    This is an interesting one. Firstly, in order to get this concession Cameron has agreed to "limited" treaty changes which he will support without putting them to a referendum (in contravention of his own plans to hold a referendum if the EU requires new powers). And secondly, things are rarely what they seem in European politics. The headline rarely lives up to the reality. Time will tell.

    The WTD is an attack employers and employees alike.
     
  6. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ALL members please note the Mission Statement of this forum:
    Please remember to comply with the rules which support the Mission Statement, especially those relating to 'Personal Attacks' and 'Flamebait'.

    thank you,
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    Site Moderator
     
  7. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Bitter because you're Belgian! That's funny. But it would be churlish of me to ask you to focus a little more on preventing the rich Flemish "opting out" of the nation of Belgium, and a little less on crude anglophobia.

    Janpor. I am a federalist. I would like to see a federal Europe, even with the break-up of the UK into constituent but independent parts of that federation. My problem is that I don't much like the company that I keep with this position.

    I'm certainly no fan of Cameron and can see how at a superficial level he may seem to be lecturing continental Europeans on matters that are not his concern. Of course this plays well to the Daily Mail. Standing up for Britain and all that. But look a little deeper to the references provided by Leffe.

    Britain is the fouth biggest economy in the world and of tremendous importance to the Eurozone. As a EU member its views are much more important than those of - sorry to say it - Beligium or Slovakia. As a major partner of the Eurozone, its views are very important, as are those of the Eurozone in determing British policy. It is you here janpor who are playing the Daily Mail's game. Perhaps you should be concerning yourself more with Het Laatste Nieuws.

    But if you follow the more serious and in depth reports you will see that what is at stake here is not a "Eurozone versus Britain" debate. We actually have a three way debate between the Big 3 of Europe (Italy is now of course almost irrelevant thanks to Italians continual collective insanity in electing a buffoon to lead them into darkness).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/nov/11/davidcameron-angela-merkel

    The three largest members of the EU &#8211; Germany, Britain and France &#8211; have been involved in something of a tussle, though they are taking different sides on each of the two steps.

    On the ECB, Britain is siding with France which would like the bank to guarantee the EFSF. For all the talk of the new Frankfurt Group &#8211; France, Germany, the ECB and the European Commission &#8211; dominating Europe, Germany is still resisting the French idea on the ECB. Angela Merkel vetoed it at the meeting in Frankfurt last month which gave rise to the name of the new group.

    On the treaty negotiation, Britain and France take opposite views, with Germany in the middle. Britain has reluctantly accepted that a narrow treaty change will probably have to be agreed by all 27 members of the EU, though it will want assurances that the City of London will not be threatened. France would like a treaty change to be agreed by the 17 members of the eurozone. Nicolas Sarkozy outlined this thinking in a speech in Strasbourg on Tuesday when he revived the French dream of creating a two speed Europe with an inner core of the eurozone members and an outer core of the ten countries outside the eurozone.


    The French vision of a narrow Eurozone, controlled by enarques and technocrats, a grand "gravy train" of fat salaries, extravagent expense accounts, and bureaucratic regulation, is a complete nightmare. Even Germany looks to Britain to save it from such destruction:

    Sources in Brussels say that France would like to press for a eurozone-only treaty to create new rules and institutions that would be less favourable to the Anglo-Saxon model of open trade. As I blogged recently, Germany likes Britain to be present for such negotiations because it shares some, if not all, of Britain's views on liberal trade.

    France, in its "anti-anglo-saxon" fervour, yearns for an illiberal Gaullism, extended to a club of nations controlled by it and Germany, with Italy - a nation increasingly known for corruption and bureaucracy - going along for the ride. This is the anti-democratic corruption of rule by meritocrats, a Gallic elitism equally as distasteful and reactionary as the rule by public schoolboys that used to donminate Britain. Germany, to its credit, will not have any of this.

    Cameron, on the other hand, is playing far too much to the Daily Mail on this one. Fundamentally I agree with supporting France on the ECB and Germany on opposing a two speed illiberal Europe. But Cameron needs to shake off this Europhobic baggage that he takes with him everywhere. I empathize with Germany's irritation.

    Ultimately the European "project" will not succeed until Europe develops truly decentralized federalism along the lines of that in the United States of America, ensures that its institutions are truly democratic and accountable, and embraces free trade. This must be a Europe that faces down the nationalists within its borders: little Englanders, strutting Gaullists, or Germans who moan about subsidizing people in markets their exports have dominated*. In getting to this we should not trust the elitist technocrats from France.

    *And the Vlaams Belang of course, which could merit your attention.
     
  8. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    You are reeking from anti-UK manure. Europe is a joke without the UK's sophisticated culture and management traditions. I can assure you, you don't want a French policeman/admin. The UK does have a very American style internal problem as per its traditions, but the UK people do know that their future is inside the Eurozone. Without the Euro, the UK will sink to Holland's economic power level. Why are you anti-UK? Aren't they your Germanic brothers from across the pond?
     
  9. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Absolute drivel .
    There has never been a poll that showed less than 70% of British people wanting out of the zone and any sort of move toward a Federal Europe .
    It is already academic to talk about the present Eurozone in future terms because it is unfit for purpose and falling apart .
    There could be a different grouping of a few of the stronger countries at some point but that is many years away .
     
  10. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Some UK posters mentioned although there is some merit, we are not brainwashed regarding the EU agenda and do not view conceding sovereignty to unelected EU Eurocrats as an improvement.
    This has plainly been borne out by the current economic fiasco.
    Regardless of this, it may have been taken as a personal affront and one has been posting anti-UK threads for months now. Entertaining as that is, bit of a waste of time...
     
  11. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    I've been accused by numerous posters of being "anti-UK".

    The idea alone is utterly ludicrous.

    It is also pretty funny coming from you Viv...

    I'm not the one voting in British elections, and I'm not the one voting for the SNP either. That's you, Viv. In practice, that makes you far more "anti-UK" than me -- don't you agree?! :omg:

    Please, show me one anti-UK post I have made in the last few months. Thanks.
     
  12. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    Heroclitus,

    I'm sure you have heard of the concept of "pillarization" of societies in Belgium and The Netherlands?!

    So I first like to point out that the Flemish newspaper "Het Laatse Nieuws" has a rather tabloid-ish name when translated in to English. Sure, it's a bit more folksy than some other newspapers but it surely doesn't stand on the same footing as e.g. the Daily Mail, The Sun, etc. In fact, Het Laatste Nieuws is considered to be a "liberal" newspaper.

    Secondly, Vlaams Belang (= Flemish Interest), previously "Vlaams Blok" (disbanded by the Courts in 2004 for being rascist), has been in a cordon santiaire imposed by all of civil society since the late 1980's -- it's support has been evaporated ever since and currently stands at about 9% of the public vote and is expected to drop further.

    Thirdly, I'd like to address the rest of your post.

    On a personal level it makes me a little sad that you too are accusing me of anglophobia...

    My problem is not "the UK", my problem is the socio-economic model it is currently defending, against the interests of 450 million other Europeans: raw neo-liberalism wrapped up into the Washington Consensus.

    In that respect the article you provided means, and I'm sorry to say this, nothing to me.

    Heroclitus, I've already made-up my mind: and it could be summed-up by following small quotation:

    The UK, with her absolute obstructionist attitude, has made a lot of enemies the last year and a half -- including me. ;)

    Funny, or sad, thing is that the UK is not being obstructionist to defend the welfare and well-being of the British populace, but for the sake of the pockets of companies in The City. Sad.
     
  13. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    No, despite having attended school for a short time in Belgium a long time ago, I have to admit that my acquaintance with Belgian politics is only at a superficial level.

    Actually, though superficial, my acquaintance with Belgian politics is not quite so poor as you assume. I understand the Flemish separatists to be a reaction to a Walloon supremicism that was once utterly racist in character. They may be liberal, but they are still separatist. The fact that now Beligium is split between an industrialized and prosperous Flemish North and, excepting Brussels, a declining francophone South is inconvenient for Europhiles when they see how much the rich, liberal separatists have a good case for throwing off the yoke of Gallic chauvinism.

    Yes 9% of your country voting neo-Nazi should be a matter of concern. In Britain the Conservative Party's strength has always been a buffer against fascism.

    Anglophobia can operate at many levels. It doesn't mean you hate all things British. I dare say you like our breakfast. You should.

    This is meaningless isn't it? About as blunt and imprecise a criticism as you could make. As if there are no neo-liberals in Germany? As if Sarkozy is not Atlanticist in his foreign policy? But most of all because it fails to articulate the position you stand for.

    This is an incredible thing to post. I can't believe you wrote that. Read that again. This is you sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "NAAAAA, NOT LISTENING NOT LISTENING....NAAA." This is a debating forum. Is this just evidence of a deep authoritarian streak that runs through your thinking janpor? You're not even going to answer the challenge (all that Vlaams stuff was a sideshow, this here, that you avoid, is the main event).

    This is the best you have? A gloopy mush of hubris and nothingness that expresses nothing but anglophobia (the charge is hereby proved) and boorishness. With this you reject the more nuanced position of a federalist like me (European first, British second) and my observation that maybe Germany is not a hundred percent happy with French manoeuvring and looks to Britain for support. Your posts have become like a Daily Mail caricature in reverse, as wooden, block-headed and irrational as those of any little Englander Tory. You puzzle me. Are you so empty of ideas?

    What is this emotional mush? The UK has always played this role. Just as France has always played the role of insisting on European directives and then refusing to implement them when they don't like them.

    I make a serious point, that this two speed Europe, with its French elitism and Italian corruption, together with its deep protectionism, will not be supported by a Germany, that looks to Britain for support. Your reply is an almighty "va t'en foutre" to anyone who challenges the Brussels gravy train, including real Europhiles like me that want to see a federalism based on sound democratic and liberal principles, that certainly are not championed in the corridors of power in Paris or Rome.

    Is your analysis really so simplistic?

    What is the point of me making detailed arguments to you if you are going to refuse to deal with them and answer them with this drivel?

    Takes me back to school in Uccle when I would ask "pourquoi?" and I would get that very frustrating reply that simply does not exist in English..."parce-que". This is your argument: "parce que". Me, l'anglais: "parce que de quoi?". Belgian person: "parce-que" (Gallic shrug).
     
  14. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth ...

    I wish the British government would be a lot more obstructionist, because as Janpoor so rightly points out we have enough problems of our own.
     
  15. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a wonderful way of distracting attention from them.
     
  16. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Am not sure that is true .
    We have problems -- who does not ? But compared to every other major EU economy , we are getting by very nicely , thank you very much .
    The first time we will really feel the heat is when the French Banks come under pressure and , God forbid , the Agencies remove France's triple A rating . I assess that as 50:50 at this moment .
    But against this , if that happens the Fed will launch QE3 to stop the biggest holding Bank on the planet technically go under --- because it would then bring down at least one US bank as a domino effect .
    But Germany would take a big hit and for years I have thought that the weak link is Deutsche Bank and hidden Russian involvement . It would not privately surprise me if the wretched Mafia Bank is worth £1.50 after true toxic debts are removed from the balance sheet .
    It's very finely balanced and one courageous person could get us all through for another two years if they thought very big and could sell something which at heart would be a plug and not a solution .
     
  17. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    I was assuming nothing on your part, my main goal of my previous post was to inform you. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no need to speculate that I somehow was trying to put you down because your (lack of) knowledge of Belgian politics.

    This is debatable as far as I'm concerned, but in all honesty my engine isn't exactly overheating on the prospect to argue over this.

    All the breakfasts I have enjoyed in England until now, were hardly to write home about. Although I really want to appreciate your remark in an atmosphere of comradeship -- the nature of your post, which is highly abusive -- limits my ability and willingness to do so.

    It's hardly meaningless, blunt or imprecise. Nor did I ever denied the excistence of Neo-Liberalism on the Continent, or Sarkozy's foreign policy being Atlanticist in nature for that matter, although I suspect this ending rather soon in the forseenable future -- America proclaiming herself as "a pacific nation" may have to do something with that.

    At best, my comment fell short on detail -- which is nurtured by my slackness and sense of personal frustration because of my limited mastery of the English language.

    However, it is totally indisputable that the UK is nothing more than a neo-liberal bridge and springboard, from and to, the European mainland. Hence, in order to re-organize, reform and reconstruct the Eurozone and the EU at large, the main attention point is to limit the influence of this entire mess that is the UK and The City in general.

    Yes, I was avoiding the "main stuff" and concentrating on the sideshow -- mostly because I was completely taken aback by the complete irrelevant tripe you posted previously. I can't make a diamond out of a piece of coal, Heroclitus...

    This is outrageous, or to use a line of yourself: very abusive!

    Please Heroclitus, bore someone else with unfounded, completely uncalled for and very misplaced rudeness. I, on the other hand, will not stand for it.

    The accusation of anglophobia is, intellectualy speaking, as empty as air -- not to mention highly offensive, and in my view, incredibly dumb since it is often used, as is in this case, as a mechanism to dismiss any criticism, founded or unfounded, of anything British.

    I also find it quite dubious on your part that you accuse me of being short on ideas whilst your opinions seem merely founded on a single article plucked from the website of The Guardian.

    Anyhow, it speaks for itself that not everything that is in France's interest is in the interest of all things German. However, as a response to this, it is more than a bridge to far to argue that because of this, somehow the Germans would blindly go along with the British.

    France's and Germany's interests, while not being exactly the same, are pretty convergent nontheless. Even despite British-fueled interference, misrepresentations and the UK's overall willingess in trying to play them out against each other.

    Yes, the UK has always played the role of being an obstructionist -- as such she was granted numerous "opt-outs" in varioust fields. So forgive me my amazement when I see the UK proclaiming that Eurozone-members should integrate further whilst at the same time demanding for a say in the negotiations.

    In our attempt to transform ourselves in "Euroland" -- with sound fiscal integration, which on her turn, would imply integration on the social policy field -- the UK is ought to be expected to be nothing more than a radio jammer and thus, should be kept away from the negotiations, and the project, as far as possible. At least initiately.

    If we should believe the headlines in the Anglo-saxon media, we are living in extraordinary times. Don't extraordinary times ask for extraordinary measures, Heroclitus? A make or brake moment! A window of opportunity?

    A two-speed-Europe will not come falling out of the skies -- I'm sure that Italy realizes the severe situation their country is in, and I assume France does too, to a certain extenct -- although I'm sure the expected Anglo-saxon orchestrated credit downgrading will put them out of their state of hibernation soon enough. Not to mention, that the Socialists are expected to win the elections next year and they will drop the Gaullism in the blink of an eye.

    Well,...

    My advice to you would be to re-read your own post before you make the claim that it was detailed. It wasn't, far from it actually.

    I hardly doubt this is a Belgian thing. I'm sure every child had to live with the frustration when they questioned the authority of their parents or teachers with a "why?" and they got a rather blunt "because!" -- it got even worse when you asked: "why because?" -- it sounds more fun in Dutch and French I must say: Waarom? Daarom! Waarom daarom? Daarom! Waarom daarom, daarom? Daarom! Waarom daarom, daarom, daarom?

    Then you got smacked! :mrgreen:

    Anyways, you've got your rude post -- and I got mine. I hope that we will be able to continue our debate in a more civil manner from now on.

    Kind regards,

    Jan
     
  18. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    None of that means that we don't have our own problems. We, the British people, should not be propping up the euro.
     
  19. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Janpor - Please do not confuse the UK (while it exists) and England. They are very different things. Those who want to become an American colony are mostly confined to the latter.
     
  20. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    I think you must have been corrupted by too many American rightwingers if you miss the obvious tongue in cheek tone of my posts on Belgium. I am quite obviously a big fan and empathetic to the problems liberals have with extremists in Belgium

    Highly abusive? Does a little rigour in an argument get through so thin a skin. Of course the remark was meant to be playful. Your emotionalism here is strange.

    I can't belive how I seem to have underestimated you. Do you not have friends with whom you argue vigorously? Maybe not. But I can't stop myself from saying that this is appalling tripe. America has been saying that Asia Pacific is the future for years. It's one of Bill Clinton's most overworked themes. Do you think Sarkozy didn't notice before?

    Rubbish. Your mastery of the English language is beyond dispute.

    Again, you seem to be suggesting that enormous deficits in the Eurozone are something to do with the UK, in fact, here you say that it's all the UK's fault, but that at the same time this is not Britain's business. This is garbage janpor. It's just emotional anglophobia. Just because this was started by a sub-prime mortgage crisis does not mean that Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland could go on extending their decicits indefinitely. The main cause is the Eurozone's failure to properly dicipline the deficits of their members. This is hardly disputed. Making this all the fault of the City is absurd. No serious European politician has even suggested this. This is ultra-left bilge.

    So you think the fact that Germany is in an alliance with Britain against France on this, as it is strongly against the French two-speed model, is "irrelevant tripe"? Clearly. It suits you to ignore the fact that Germany is not as enamoured with French protectionism as you would have them be. It suits your argument - that somehow the UK is the cause of all the problems - to ignore the fact that Germany refuses to subsidize the profligate states of Europe on a French say so.

    How? You just refuse to debate, preferring to just abuse Britain as "neo-liberal" and blame it for everything. How is this not the same style as the Daily Mail?.

    Now your boorishness is becoming irritating janpor. It seems anything other than furious agreement meets with your displeasure. I suppose this is characteristic of the Gallic authoritarianism which I criticize, but until now, had not recognized in your posts.

    Except here it was heavily qualified, supported by argument, and nuanced with criticism of the UK by myself, so your argument that i am trying to "dismiss any criticsm" is rubbish. I want you to back it up, or consider alternative points of view, but you won't do that, preferring to take offence instead.

    Let me clarify one thing, which may be linguistic. An accusation of anglophobia is not the same as an accusation of racism, or indeed xenophobia even. It doesn't have strong connotations in general. Mainly because as a nation which is fairly self deprecatory, we're all pretty anglophobic ourselves. It does mean "irrational", and it does imply "prejudice" and some "ignorance". But it doesn't mean "hatred". Except in the way that everyone hates us, especially our neighbours; we're pretty much used to it. It's fairly mild and maybe this hasn't been understood by you, which is understandable. It's not a strong insult nor intended to be.

    That's a very poor insult. Is that the best you can do? I think it is clear that my ideas are based on more than one article from the Guardian. Still, as this is a serious article you don't want to discuss, because perhaps you find it doesn't quite meet your "England is the root of all evil" garbage, then I suppose this is an udnderstandable slur.
     
  21. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    What a gross misrepresentation of my position. The Germans don't blindly go along with anything, nor do the French. Germany just has little sympathy with the protectionist instincts of France, which is unsurprising given that Germany is the most successful exporting nation in the world.

    Again, this is a very simple world you are trying to have us see here. It's probably a result of too much time debating with strange Americans who think the world was made in seven days: that does tend to lead to this tribal style thinking that defies analysis. France and Germany's (and the UK's) interests are both convergent and divergent, depending on what we are talking about. Germany is much more economically liberal than France and would like access to stock markets capital, much more than France would. The UK taking different positions on different positions is no more "playing people against each other" as it is for France or Germany. This is a sort of anti-UK paranoia more appropriate for Tehran where bad weather is blamed on "the British" due to ancient emnities.

    The UK is not arguing for further Eurozone integration. It is arguing for Germany to bail out the Greeks et al.. Makes sense as Germany has benefited most from the Euro. As for the anti-UK "mind your own buisness", what is the point in just repeating yourself? The UK is a massive world economy and trading partner with the Eurozone. That is why it both demands - and is given - a say. It is also a member of the EU, which is a free trade alliance of European nations, which entitles it to a say in decisions which impacts Britain's international competitiveness. There ISN"T a two speed Europe right now, no matter how much you might wish it. There is one EU and many smaller EU nations are grateful for the UK leadership that resists the bullying behaviour of the Franco-German axis.

    The problem I have with this ideal, which I support, is that this is being done AGAINST the wishes of the European people. German public opinion was only ever marginally in favour of the Euro, which was mostly in the short term interests of Germany. This persistent ignoring of the wishes of electors will only ensure that the bureaucratic and undemocratic institutions of the EU remain so and that power remains in the hands of a few plutocrats who 'know best". Also the key dealbreaker is not "social policy". That is a proxy for wider issues. Many people in the UK will agree with European labour laws. The dealbreakers are that Eurobureaucrats want to - without properly consulting their people - introduce political integration whereby taxes are decided centerally as well. Decision making will be increasingly centralized.

    What is being done here is that a faction of Europhiles - that you seem to be supporting - are pushing for further political integration OVER THE HEADS OF THE EUROPEAN PEOPLE. Now personally as I have said, I would like to live in an integrated Europe with regional power properly devolved to nation states as in the USA. This makes me an extreme pro European by anyone's standards. I am in favour of political and economic union. But I am totally against this being done by a group of technocrats against the wishes of the European people. Partly because I just believe in democracy, and partly because I think that the existing European institutions - havens of bureaucracy and corruption - need to be completely transformed before any really transparent and accountable European government is allowed.

    In emergencies wise people seek to minimize the permanent change they make just to deal with the immediate crisis. Tyrants try and use these situations to impose illiberal solutions. This may be a great moment for having a debate. But right now the priority shoudl be to fix the crisis. Merkel will fix it (don't delude yourself that France has any real power in this), but only after she has extracted the maximum concessions for Germany in terms of extending its grip over the domestic policies of other nations. To a certain extent this is not unreasonable for Germany, but to extend that to some "grand vision" would be tantamount to economic annexation of smaller nations.

    This is nothing more tha swivel-eyed paranoia. It is entirely French in my view and experience. Germans don't talk such garbage and understand how the world goes round and their place within it. The French think that the world would belong to them if they hadn't been dispossessed by a dastardly anglo-saxon plot. It is characteristic of an ugly Gaulism that pretends that France was liberated by the French and that l'albion perfide is the root of all evil. You think that socialists are not implicated in such self deceit? Mitterand was immersed in it. To suggest that the credit agencies are an anglo saxon conspiracy is just embarrassinig janpor. To see your thinking degraded by such arrant nonsense is very sad indeed.


    Maybe. Perhaps I could do better. But think about this. I hate British conservatives. I want to see a European political and monetary union including all European states. I want to see that done with the consent of the European people. I want to see democratic institutions and countries like France - who are highly selective in their enforcement of EU directives - subject to the authority of these institutions. But...that doesn't mean that I blame everything wrong with the EU on "les anglo-saxons".

    Your analysis, that the whole crisis is the fault of anglo saxon financial institutions, that Britain should be expelled from the EU, that a two speed Europe should be immediately imposed on the continent without consultation of its people, that control over taxation and debt should be subject to a centralized Franco-German decision making process... this is the stuff that fuels anti-Europeanism in every European nation. This is the Daily Mail caricature of pro-Europeans that most pro Europeans spend their time denying. But with you the emergency demands a putsch by Eurocrats, over the heads of Europe's people, with all dissent to be crushed...and this is fuelled by not a little schadenfreude. Forgive me if I see this as tyranny and despotism...waiting in the wings.

    In Belgium you do get to say it in two languages! I must say it sounds funny in Flemish. In Britain this rarely happens. It was a cultural shock. If you can't explain something, even just with a "because I said so" reason, then it is irrational and your head explodes. We need things explaining in England. We don't just do what we are told. Too many "parce-que"s and we declare war.

    Wow, for asking "why" too much, you got smacked! This really explains a lot behind your attitude.

    Get a thicker skin janpor. I'm not going to pull any punches. If you read the tone of this properly you'll see that I respect you. But don't be too precious. I don't respect your authoritarian ideas. Debate can be rough sometimes.

    Same to you.
     
  22. Paris

    Paris Well-Known Member

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    Holy cow, Clitus hero is talking of war !

    What's happened to them ENglanders' tea party spirit ?
     
  23. Trollcifer

    Trollcifer Newly Registered

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    I'm going with Heroclitus on this Janpor.

    Your retorts are pretty hypocritical in parts (especially arguing his/her reliance on the tabloids as a basis of his/her argument) and you really did (possibly due to English not being your first language) misinterpret a large portion of his pretty valid post.

    Francophilia is hardly a valid excuse for rephrasing comments suggesting Germany respects/desires British support in some matters that run contrary to French plans as him/her claiming that "because of this, somehow the Germans would blindly go along with the British."

    Misinterpretation to "win" an argument is feeble at best.

    I'm not going to comment on the penultimate paragraph of gibberish (whether in Dutch or otherwise).

    Also.... last I checked "Phobos" is implies a fear of rather than a hatred of.
     
  24. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    I don't know anyone who wants to become an American colony. Have you ever spoken to anyone who does?
     
  25. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

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    This segment of your post contains some truths, but also a rather large amount of falshehoods, misrepresentations, mere speculative aspects and outright nonsense.

    First of all, I agree with your critcism of the inadequate enforcing of Eurozone-rules. However, coupling the factual financial and economical state of these countries, on itself, is no reason for all the credit-downgrades and all the speculative betting coming out of New York and London, that is forcing millions into poverty and hardship. It's that, all the dubious speculating coming out of London, re-enforced by world-wide Anglo-saxon media networks that I'm complaining about! So, it's utter nonsense to suggest that I somehow have said that it's the UK's fault that some European countries have ran up debt and high defecits in the past -- but let's keep it factual, shall we? It's a complete misrepresenation on your part to suggest that the Eurozone's deficit is "enormous". Hardly. It currently stands around 5%.

    I wonder, Heroclitus -- since I think this might have to do something with our current misunderstanding -- have you taken notice of the "currency war"? Or is the notion of it's very excistance just "ultra-left-wing bilge" too?!

    This is just nonsense -- except for in your imagination -- there is no German-British alliance. Germany itself is pushing for a two-speed-Europe, in the sense it is preparing such a scenario itself for months now.

    Your mentioning of a traditional French protectionism (a.k.a. "dirigisme") and the entire apparatus build around it (e.g. École Nationale d'Administration) has nothing to do with this either.

    Therefore, yes -- it's irrelevant tripe, not to mention highly infactual too.

    And again, your imagination is running wild since I never said the UK is the root of all evil to begin with.

    However, it's a matter of fact, that the British attitude is one of an obstructionist in the scope of launching a two-speed-Europe that is neccessary to deal with the Eurozone's problems.

    Now, I do understand why the UK is so worried but since the country is not a member of the Eurozone, it has no business whatsoever to interfere in this debate.

    I'm not refusing anything, as I said earlier -- it's hard to make a diamond out a piece of coal.

    Please Heroclitus, try to explain to me -- and others, who might be interested -- why it is that a large portion of the EEA's financial industry is headquartered in the UK? Why is that about 90% of all European hedgefunds are stationed in London? Could it have to do with a lack of regulation? Or friendly government policies? Or is it just coincedence?

    Irritating, how come? Because I will not stand for your obvious bruteness?

    I disagree completely -- I simply refuse to submit to your charge of "anglophobia". I wish I had such a mechanism to use, some sort of tool to neutralize any criticism to which I don't agree with -- maybe we could call it "Belgaphobia".

    Anglophobia is nothing more than a nationally constructed tool, some sort of "relief mechanism" in the sociological sense of the word. I understand the need for the British populace to have such a mechanism at their disposal, but I think it's rubbish nonetheless.

    Indeed, I understand you feel that was poor insult -- it might have to do with the fact that it never was meant to be an insult to begin with. So I guess that's settled.

    => Heroclitus, I really don't understand what your problem is? Is it so difficult to understand why I believe there is a need to build-out a two-speed-Europe organized around the Eurozone?
     

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