When did the Dems turn anti-Israel?

Anyone that believes in the ideals upon which America was founded which established the protection of the unalienable Rights of ALL People logically opposes the "Zionists" of Israel which reject this ideal. It is the opposition to the actions of these Israeli Zionist leaders that are opposed and not the Jewish People or Israel specifically.

It is the Zionists that are opposed because of their violations of universal unalienable Rights and that is just cause for opposition to them.

 

There is antisemitism in some areas of the "black community", an unfortunate outcome from an event in the '60s involving school politics-- I forget the details, but before that point, Jews were strong allies to the black community as champions of civil rights... It looks like yet another case of status quo elites harvesting and exacerbating resentment to divide and conquer.
But then, blacks don't vote as a bloc based on anti-semitism, so it's irrelevant.
Also, I think black antisemitism is overestimated thanks to a few nutty high profile preachers (always preachers of some sort-- it's religious more than political)

The other point is more valid.
But then the Palestinians, at least most of them, are victims.
That doesn't mean Jewish civilians killed by Palestinian terrorists aren't victims, but some people are drawn to poles.
I honestly can't contemplate how people can't have some sympathy toward both sides.

But the most common Democratic belief is two-state solution. The same solution favored by most American Jews and Israeli Jews for that matter.

Zionist socialism isn't "a few stupid Jews". It was a major movement in the formation of Israel. It's still a big part of national identity to many Israelis.

I think Zionists is too broad a term here.
That word has come to mean all people who back the existence of the state of Israel.
It seems like you're more at odds with a particular subset that wants Israel to be a theocratic state giving extra rights to orthodox Jews (Netanyahu being a prime example of that branch-- but it looks like a lot of Israelis aren't so fond of him anymore).

 

"Supposedly"? Who are the ones standing up for Israel, nowadays? Liberals? The ones who insist that Israel return land they legitimately won after Egypt declared war on them? The ones portraying Israel as the aggressors, even when the entire Arab world is plotting ways to wipe Israel off the map? The only friend Israel has in this country are conservatives who understand the value in supporting a fellow Western ally.

Yes, I believe violent Muslim terrorists, who believe in wholesale slaughter of Jews and anyone else resisting Islam, are less than human, in many ways. Sorry you feel the opposite way, although it is not surprising, in the least.

And, last time I checked, it was Muslims who divided the world into "Dar al Islam" and "Dar al Harb" — "House of Islam" and "House of War", respectively. The Dar al Harb is any place where Shariah is not the law of the land, and it is the responsibility of Muslims to engage in war in these areas until Allah's religion reigns supreme. This is what Muslims in Palestine believe.

Not sure what you are alluding to here.

 

At least Israel acknowledges the existence of unalienable Human Rights, which is more than one can say about Palestine, or any of the surrounding Arab Islamic countries.

 

Why are we standing up for Israel?

The ONLY place in the world where Jews are in danger is the Occupied territories..

American Jewry is not as supportive as they once were.. Remember.. Bibi Netyanhu cursed Obama as a J Street Jew because they are for peace in Palestine.

 

For whom? Not for Arab Muslims or Christians.

Where have YOU lived in the surrounding countries where your human rights were compromised??

 

If they are so victimized, why are they some of the most obese people in the world? Why would Israel allow billions of pounds of food and aid to pass through its borders (which is something Hamas refused to do, very recently right after the jihad flotilla incident).

Why should we, in the West, have sympathy for Islamic terrorists?

Or we can just acknowledge that Palestine is nothing more than a section of Jordan, set up for political purposes.

 

They are an ally. Next question.

Jews are in danger all over the world, even in the US. Muslims cry about being "victimized" when the #1 hate crime, by far, is against Jews. Every single one of Israel's neighbors supports Israel's destruction, and some, including Iran, are working towards developing weapons capable of doing just that.

Muslims have been slaughtering Jews since Muhammad's time. This is simply a continuation of the work that was started in the 7th century.

 

They are not in danger anywhere except in the occupied territories.

They live and work and prosper everywhere.. In the US and Europe and South America.

Have you been living under a rock?

 

Why are most hate crimes in this country against Jews? Why are they the only country in the world surrounded by enemy nations?

 

Why is Israel in an active state of war with Gaza? The blockade imposed by Israel of Gaza ports is an overt act of war.

Palestine is not a part of Jordan and never has been. Jordan did, at one time, provide governance over part of Palestine but individuals born there were never citizens of Jordan. Many were refugees from Israel where they were natual born citizens but were denied the Right of Return to their homeland by the Zionist government of Israel in violation of UNGA Resolution 194 and the 1949 Armistice that Israel signed and agreed to. Both of these documents supported the Right of Return for non-Jewish residents of towns and villages in Israeli occupied territory.

Let us also not forget that the territories occupied by Israel in the 1948-49 Arab-Israeli War are not a part of Israeli territory. Israel agreed with this fact in the 1949 Armistice. When is Israel going to withdraw from this territory and why does it continue to occupy it?

http://www.historycentral.com/Israel/Documents/ISRAELJordanONARMISTICE.html

While the Armistice did allow military occupation based upon certain territorial lines it expressly prohibited any nation from claiming those lines as a part of their national territory. Israel agreed to these conditions as did Jordan. Much of what Israel claims today as being its territory are not a part of Israel. We can talk about the occupation of the West Bank, for example, which Israel is occupying in violation of UNSC Resolution 242 but much of the territories East of the Jordan River are excluded from being considered as Israeli territory. At best the Israeli government could claim that the territorial boundries established by UNGA Resolution 181 belong to Israel but even that is subject to negotiation with the Palestinians under the Armistice of 1949.

 

Two-state has little chance of working out economically. The Israelis are the biggest employers now, separate statehood would only reduce that. Aid from Iran or Saudi Arabia would have ideological strings, probably making re-occupation necessary before long. Only solution is one state, either pure Zionism, apartheid or some form of federalism. Arabs already live in Israel proper.

 

"The conservatives are going to destroy Israel by encouraging them to hold on to an unsustainable status quo over pure nationalist pride. The conservative "solution" seems to be that Palestinians are sub-human and therefore should not be accepted to get any land that's worth anything and that it's okay for fundamentalists orthodox Jews to continue expanding settlements into what territory they have.

Liberals support negotiations based on a realistic and sustainable land divide. That's the starting point to peace. The longer the Palestinians are kept stateless and in a very inequitable situation, there will be nothing to build peace from, no possible shared stake.
Yes, some Palestinian groups are responsible for this, but that doesn't make Netanyahu any less part of the problem.
The extremists on both sides, without realizing it, support one another's goals.

Typical of religious fundamentalist thought, regardless of religion. You treat Muslims as a monolithic collective. So thus they deserve collective punishment.
Meanwhile, being a conservative, you probably have an exteme "individualist" view on people in your own country (or at least white Christians in your own country).

No doubt you assume Muslims to be the Borg as it is necessary for binary thinking to persist.
But let's not pretend what you want is to protect Israelis. What you want is to protect the IDEA of Israel, at least what it means to conservatives in America (an enemy to the Evil Islam or necessary for the Rapture).

Saudi Arabia is treated differently from the rest of the Arab world because their royal family is helpful to US national interests... despite being the epitome of everything conservatives claim to hate about Islam.
I can't even imagine the mental gymnastics required to say we need to keep supporting the Saudis in the name of realism while we also continue to support Israel in the name of pure ideology.

 

Hahahahaha.. Palestinians are in no way obese.. They are far thinner than Americans.

Where do you get such BS from?

 

There are literally thousands of American expats who have lived in Arabia for decades.. some are third generation..

Almost universally.. they love and respect the Saudi people..

 

You need to document that claim about Jews being victims of hate crimes in America more so than any other group.

Or is this like your claim that Palestinians are "obese".. Hahhahaha

 

Israel is in an active state of war probably because Hamas has "the elimination of Israel" in its official charter. That's a declaration of war if I ever heard one. They have the right to defend themselves, which includes preventing other enemy Arab states from shipping weapons to Gaza.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLcHeDSh5d4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLcHeDSh5d4[/ame]

 

You really believe that if Israel gave land away to Muslims, there would be peace in that region? The recipients of that land would simply take it as a sign from Allah that he is giving Muslims victory over the Jews, and they would be even more charged to destroy the Jewish enemy. This is not just a political stage here, there is also 1400 years of religious conflict behind it.

Israel was declared war on and was attacked. Israel won. Why should they give back land? Should we give back land to Mexico in areas where we fought and won?

Palestinians are not capable of peace. Their God given mission is to destroy the Jews and to destroy the Jewish homeland. They aren't going to respond to rational discourse, so how can Israel "negotiate" with them? The best they can hope for is appeasement, which may delay the inevitable.

Germans weren't a monolithic collective either, but we still had to treat the entire country as our enemy. I don't care how many peaceful Muslims there are. The fact is, there are millions of extremist Muslims out there. That's a fact that only West-hating liberals are willing to ignore.

If white Christians in this country were causing as many problems as Muslims are all over the globe, I would be a lot less tolerant of them. As it stands, your attempt at a moral equivalence fails.

Is that anything like the liberal talking point against Christians that you just exhibited? It's either irony or hypocrisy, I can't decide.

Of course I like the idea of Israel. It's a Western country that exists in a very unfriendly and very unWestern part of the world. Israelis value the same basic principles that people in the West do. Given the choice between Israel and the terrorist countries that surrounds it, it's an easy choice for me. (Nice try with the "hurr durr, you must be Christian" jabs, though)

We need oil. Saudi Arabia has it. I wish they didn't, since they are the ones most responsible for the shift towards fundamentalist Islam. However, Obama's "Green Jobs Initiative" isn't going to replace our need for oil.

Ideology is what keeps you on the side of the poor, poor Palestinians and their shoulder-mounted rocket launches. Ideology is why liberals want to treat an enemy nation as an ally, even though they are not. Israel is supported because they actually are an ally.

 

Which still doesn't disprove my point about them being some of the most obese people in the world. Nice try, though.

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ny_sees_surge_in_hate_IM7xmcNGdI0pEowrCRZZII

So 11 hate crimes against Muslims vs 251 against Jews.

Oh, when will this "Islamophobia epidemic" end!?

 

Mebbe dey just wanna visit the Holyland...

Why one-fifth of US representatives went to Israel this summer
August 25, 2011 - The record delegation of 81 congressmen, whose expenses were paid by an AIPAC affiliate, is seen as a circling of the wagons just weeks ahead of a UN vote on Palestinian statehood.

 

It's Mr. Obama. He's made it clear in his actions, he's against Israel....

 

I'm not psychic, so no. What I do believe is that peace will not come so long as an equitable two-state solution does not come to pass.

Nothing is instant or automatic. And, well, just giving land away isn't even the proposed solution. The main goal is to create a functioning and workable Palestinian state. There would most certainly be strings attached to any land turn-overs, hopefully incentives that encourage peace and economic development.

So in your view, Palestinians have evolved into a species unlike that of normal humans and thus are 100% devoted to a fictional entity above their own material interests.
That's ridiculous. All fundamentalist groups ultimately gravitate toward their material interests on aggregate, evoking God to rationalize it (funny thing with fundamentalists is that they can rationalize literally ANYTHING with God).
Also you seem to think every last Palestinian is a fundamentalist.

The real problem is that in the status quo, Palestine has no incentive to make peace. Opportunistic terrorists have every incentive to attack Israel. This has nothing to do with religion, though God's name always comes up in such human quarrels.
To prevent this requires a shift in the status quo.
Remember the IRA? They were finally disarmed when they were able to make their voices heard politically.

The German government was our enemy. After defeating the German government, did we then wipe out all the Germans?
In the case of Palestine, the recognized government is not the enemy.
Who exactly do we fight here? How would such a war end? Would the Israelis, after the war ends, help rebuild and stabilize as we did with Germany?

The situation is actually a lot more like the IRA, only more out of control.
It won't end without a political solution.

The mentality is exactly the same. That's all I was saying.
Dodging that fact by comparing results (which are heavily based on economic and political conditions) doesn't get us anywhere.
If conditions in the US were like those in the Middle East, Christian fundies would be on the rampage.

Actually neither.
I realize it's difficult for some to wrap their heads around this, but we're looking at different traits and analyzing them in different ways.
You are looking at what people name their gods and possibly what ethnic group they belong to as a way to characterize them ALL. Which is a different standard than you likely hold for white Christians in America(who are all individuals with different traits).
I'm assuming that all people are individuals and that variation exists in all ethnicities and religions (because it's true) and that people are more likely to be guided by REAL interests in the grand scheme of things than imaginary ones.

So I use not the term Christian, but Christian fundamentalist, fundamentalism being a trait that is in any religion defined as rigid, exclusionary, and hostile to outside influences.
Since my claims about a group called that are exactly what the term is defined as, it's not any kind of double standard. If you don't meet the definition, you're not a fundamentalist!

But do go on dodging.

The fact of the matter is, however, tha you don't get a choice between them.
None of us do.
All these peoples exist. And unless you enjoy mass murder, I would hope you believe the best solution is to forge peace in the region.

By calling people with a theory about how to attain peace "anti-Isreal", you're opening yourself up to the same label, as hose people would see your proposed solutions as more harm than good.
Get it yet?

"We need oil" is a sufficient reason to back psychotic fundamentalists who you claim are our greatest enemy that cannot be trusted under any circumstances?!
Quite the Chamberlain you are.

Actually, if you paid attention to my argument at all, you'd realize I'm on the side of both the Palestinians and the Israelis but not the rocket launchers.
To some extent all is based on ideology (obviously there are different theories on how foreign policy works-- to deny that is when you become a true rigid ideologue). I believe it's better for Isreal, Palestine, and world security for Israel and Palestine to come to an equitable consensus on a two-state solution.
It may be unrealistic to accept that.
But failure for it to happen will mean constant war in the region that will not end without mass genocide and possibly nuclear holocaust. Sadly, the hardliners in Israel may end up leading the region into exactly the fate Israel was created to avoid.

 

Just as good a question would be: when did the righties become such hardline Israel supporters? It wasn't that long ago that the KKK (i.e., southern Christian white males) hated Jews as much as they hated blacks.

Personally, I believe the big flip-flop goes back to the rise of Falwell, Robertson, Reed, etc. and the overall Evangelical movement. Since Dems ain't ever going to support that mess, they've flip-flopped on Israel, too.

Of course we've all gotten a little older, know a little more, and now understand that Israel is a brutal religious apartheid state.

 

You mean because Obama wants a Just and Peaceful peace treaty so Israel will survive and prosper???

The biggest threat to Israel is the Likkud ...