Virginia Ultrasound Bill Passes In House

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Agent_286, Feb 22, 2012.

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  1. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    One? Two? Three? Does it matter how many if you're going to do it to even ONE? Are RWers so lost to all sense of humanity that they'd do it to even ONE and feel righteous about their great dedication to human life? Since when do living human beings not qualify as human life?


    Of course it's women - all the men on those panels trying to control women's lives can't get pregnant. It's women who've decided to get an abortion for a whole host of reasons pertinent to THEIR lives - not yours or any pro-lifer's. Her reasons are her own and not subject to approval by religious nutters.



    Which shows clearly you know absolutely NOTHING about the physical or emotional trauma associated with abortion or the reasons women decide to get one. But if I DID want what you suggest, what business would it be of yours? Who gave you the right to dictate or disapprove of my personal life decisions?
     
  2. siddhartha

    siddhartha New Member

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    PP is a single, not for profit clinic, which the patient has chosen to visit - or - the patient can leave if she finds something not to her liking. Its also an entity with the latitude to change its policy for all or for an individual, based on the Doctors recommendations.

    That's quite a bit different than a government mandated medical procedure that all medical facilities and patients must follow. Doctors are forced to perform the procedure even if they disagree with it, under penalty of law.

    So yes, with PP their rights are intact. They can choose another provider.
    With the law, their rights are forfeit.
     
  3. Jebediah

    Jebediah Banned

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    I think this controversy illustrates why "small government conservative" is an oxymoron.
     
  4. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    I have the right to approve or disapprove of anything I want.

    Personally I don't care as I've stated before whether they have an ultrasound or not, but you cannot have it both ways. You can't only want government intrusion in your life when you approve of it. That is the slippery slope that all this government intervention in our lives has produced.

    Telling us what we can do, can't do. What kind of light bulbs we have to to use, what kind of toilets, what our kids can eat, regulations of salt, sugar, soda, tobacco, fast food, healthcare and the list goes on and on.

    Under the cause of trying to save us from ourselves, because we cannot be allowed to do what we think is best in our lives. We have to have big brother think for us...he knows what's best for us. He'll take care of us, make all our decisions. This is what Statism gets you.

    It's not what you want. It must be mandated. There is no individual liberty of your own choosing. It's for the good of the collective.
     
  5. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    What difference does it make if it's 20 minutes or 24 hours? Either it's murder or it's not. Since it's not murder, there's nothing wrong with fast abortion. I am yet to see a half-convincing argument that an embryo is equivalent to an actual person with a working mind, and all of this boils down to that core issue anyway. All that these sabotage attempts by conservatives is doing is getting between doctors and patients, and alienating people from your cause, particularly women and their doctors.
     
  6. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    And other women have the same right. Mandating something that does not need to be mandated - an ultrasound before an abortion - is simply trying to ban abortion by the back door. Same with the surrealistic "personhood" bill that would make every fertilized egg a "person" these same nutters tried to pass until they realized that only 31% of the people in Virginia (and it's astounding to me that they had THAT much support) supported them and the rest were mad as Hell that they're making our state a laughingstock with these stupid bills on top of the bigotry they were already famous for ever since they somehow got in office.

    And you're wrong about women not having the individual liberty to choose - at the moment, we DO have it and we'll fight to keep it from these fanatics trying to take us back to the 1800s. Conservative women are happy to take advantage of all the hard-won rights women have today because Liberal women fought tooth and nail for them while they sat back and called us "FemiNazis" yet they support those trying to take them away. They're just like people who refuse to join a union - they're happy to get the higher pay and benefits and working conditions just like the union members and then badmouth them all the way to the bank with the dues they don't have to pay.
     
  7. BestViewedWithCable

    BestViewedWithCable Well-Known Member

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  8. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    What you're showing a picture of is a woman who planned a pregnancy with her husband - who is likely there with her - for the joyful experience of seeing their baby on ultrasound for the first time. Joyful because they were able to PLAN for their child and know they're at a point in their lives when they can offer a child a stable and happy home.

    If this was a picture of an ultrasound mandated by the religious nutter Republican Legislature in Virginia, her stomach would be flat - unless the abortion was for medical reasons discovered later in the pregnancy - and instead of a husband, there would be a pro-lifer standing there trying to get her to see what she was getting ready to "murder" and telling her she will be going straight to Hell if she "murders" that child.

    Why do you think ALL people are stupid?
     
  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    So that clears it, no reason not to put it into law.

    BTW when PP does their required sonogram during the first few weeks, to what kind do they require a woman to submit? If trans-vaginal is the only option at that stage then surely they are forcing her to be "rape" as some have claimed here.

    To insure it is done as the law requires of other medical procedures vis-a-vis informed consent.

    Are you so afraid she might change her mind?
     
  10. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    The problem is, you are so incensed about this issue you can't even think straight. You totally missed the point of my post about government intervention. GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE IN ANY HEALTHCARE DECISIONS!!!!

    You think liberal women are the only ones who fought for women's rights before they could even vote, since they were not even party orientated yet??? Women's Suffrage....LMFAO...Women have been fighting for rights long before the 60's bra burnings you know.

    I am every bit a woman as you. What do you think, liberal women are the only women who's opinion counts???
     
  11. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    You don't know any of that...Stop lying!!!
     
  12. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    The picture can be used to tell a lie but I can't refute it without "lying"?

    Look at her stomach. Women don't wait until that point in their pregnancy to get an abortion unless they've discovered serious medical issues that make it necessary.
     
  13. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    more bull (*)(*)(*)(*). Women who have late term abortions isn't always because of medical issue's and you know it.
     
  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    How many 12 year rape victims get pregnant and require this service each year. How many lives might be saved if we insure every woman was truly informed about the decision she was about to make?

    What has the higher morality saving thousands of lives, hundreds of lives or easing one, two or three in despair?

    That being said I would favor and allowence in the law and it may be the case anyway, that the parent, who is the one giving consent in the first place, would be the one so informed.


    Wait a minute YOU are the one obsessed with taking innocent human life yet WE are the ones so lost to all sense of humanity?


    Yeah that's all it us, us men just want to control women and keep your pregnant. What an intellectually lame argument.

    Is that really all you have, demagoguery?

    And that trumps an innocent life how?





    And if it is just a clump of cells, if it is not human, if it is not a life, what is so emotional about it, what is the trauma?

    YOU are the one who has been telling us it is nothing to be concerned with, it is just a blob, now it is something emotional and traumatic.

    Make up your mind.
     
  15. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    Well done!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
     
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh no, PBA's were done for convenience abortion is rarely if ever called for due to medical issues. They are quite manageable these days. In fact PBA requires a breech birth is a risk.

    From the Congressional hearings

    "(13) (14) Pursuant to the testimony received duringextensive legislative hearings during the 104th, 105th, and 107th Congresses, Congress finds and declares that:

    (A) Partial-birth abortion poses seriousrisks to the health of a woman undergoing the procedure. Those risks include, among other things: an increase in a woman's risk of suffering from cervical incompetence, a result of cervical dilation making it difficult or impossible for a woman to successfully carry a subsequent pregnancy to term; an increased risk of uterine rupture, abruption, amniotic fluid embolus, and trauma to the uterus as a result of converting the child to a footling breech position, a procedure which, according to a leading obstetrics textbook, "there are very few, if any, indications for . . . other than for delivery of a second twin"; and a risk of lacerations and secondary hemorrhaging due to the doctor blindly forcing a sharp instrument into the base of the unborn child's skull while he or she is lodged in the birth canal, an act which could result in severe bleeding, brings with it the threat of shock, and could ultimately result in maternal death.

    (B) There is no credible medical evidencethat partial-birth abortions are safe or are safer than other abortion procedures. No controlled studies of partial-birth abortions have been conducted nor have any comparative studies been conducted to demonstrate its safety and efficacy compared to other abortion methods. Furthermore, there have been no articles published in peer-reviewed journals that establish that partial-birth abortions are superior in any way to established abortion procedures. Indeed, unlike other more commonly used abortion procedures, there are currently no medical schools that provide instruction on abortions that include the instruction in partial-birth abortions in their curriculum.

    (C) A prominent medical association hasconcluded that partial-birth abortion is "not an accepted medical practice," that it has "never been subject to even a minimal amount of the normal medical practice development," that "the relative advantages and disadvantages of the procedure in specific circumstances remain unknown," and that "there is no consensusamong obstetricians about its use". The association has further noted that partial-birth abortion is broadly disfavored by both medical experts and the public, is "ethically wrong," and "is never the only appropriate procedure".

    (D) Neither the plaintiff in Stenberg v.Carhart, nor the experts who testified on his behalf, have identified a single circumstance during which a partial-birth abortion was necessary to preserve the health of a woman.

    (E) The physician credited with developingthe partial-birth abortion procedure has testified that he has never encountered a situation where a partial-birth abortion was medically necessary to achieve the desired outcome and, thus, is never medically necessary to preserve the health of a woman. "
    http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/abortion/2003s3.html
     
  17. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It rarely is and not medically necessary.
     
  18. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    Well, let me ask you straight out. Do you support the VA Legislature passing a law requiring ALL women to submit involuntarily to a medical procedure before an abortion so they will have an opportunity to try to change her mind?

    Do you support the bill passed in the VA Senate that confers "personhood" on every fertilized egg? Even those that haven't implanted in the uterine wall and pass on out of the body? I wonder how they were planning to keep track of them?

    Do you believe women have the same inalienable rights that men claim to make all decisions concerning their bodies, healthcare and lives or do you believe along with Conservative men that women just aren't smart enough to make "good decisions" and therefore they must do it for them?
     
  19. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    No, I don't know that. How do YOU know it?
     
  20. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    You said you knew it.
     
  21. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    I don't believe in abortion-personal conviction
    I don't believe government should be involved in any healthcare issue's.
    I believe life begins at conception.
     
  22. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    Why is it YOUR job to ensure that women are "truly informed"? Why is the counseling she gets from her medical doctor not sufficient - because it doesn't contain the "You're a MURDERER and you're going straight to Hell" part?


    I don't care about YOUR morality. You can believe anything you want but your rights to interfere in anyone else's life and life decisions END where theirs start. As of today, every woman has a right to make her own decision with her own doctor based on her OWN morality and neither you nor the state has any right to interfere with that.


    Pro-lifer talking point #35? LOL!


    What would ever make me think that? The fact that RWers support doing away with BC, Plan B and anything that would PREVENT pregnancy, and are trying their best to make abortion illegal? Am I the only one who thinks that is a plan to control women's lives by making sure they can't prevent pregnancy and if they get pregnant, have no option but to carry and deliver it? :confused:



    By the right of a woman to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness just as all men are entitled to and the right to decide what's best for HER life and HER family rather than YOUR morality.

    Woman have lives, too, which is something RWers disregard as of no importance whatsoever.



    It is emotional and traumatic for the person you never consider to have any part in this whatsoever - the pregnant woman - the one YOU consider to be a "blob" with no feelings and no right to make her own life decisions.
     
  23. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    I said "unless there's a serious medical issue" and you called that a lie. How do you know serious medical issues never arise late in a pregnancy that make abortion necessary? I can give you a couple of examples in my own family.

    In one case, the mother developed extremely high blood pressure in her 7th month. After treating it in the hospital for a week, the doctor said they had to deliver the baby or they were BOTH going to die. They did and the baby lived only 24 hours because it's lungs weren't fully developed at that point.

    In the other, my daughter developed serious problems in her 3rd month. The doctor said they would watch her closely and try to get her to 7 months at which point the baby could likely survive but if things got worse, they would have to go ahead and "deliver" the baby to save her life. We were in full agreement with his decision because she already had 2 little ones that needed their mother. By quitting her job and staying in bed for 5 months, they were able to get her to 8 months and delivered the baby then. She survived.

    What decision would you have made in these cases - opt to let the mother die in order to save the innocent life? Why is the mother's life considered to be of no importance to RWers when situations like this arise and a decision has to be made? Who should make the decision IYO - the state?
     
  24. AnnaK

    AnnaK New Member

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    I don't believe in abortion for myself. For someone who makes that decision based on her own personal beliefs and circumstances, it should be legal and available without state interference.

    I DON'T believe life begins at conception. Why should I be forcibly constrained by a law stating that every fertilized egg is a "person" from making a decision based on my own beliefs and convictions? And risk being charged with a crime and sent to prison if I should have a "suspicious miscarriage"?
     
  25. Rapunzel

    Rapunzel New Member Past Donor

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    Then why is abortion emotional and traumatic???
     
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