Is it sick that I kind of want to see the Tea Party's plan put to work??

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by akphidelt, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Who cares... what does that matter? What matters more, economic stability or the Govt's checkbook?

    If you can't give me a mathematical representation of why Govt spending is harmful to the economy, then you should not be advocating such a disastrous philosophy.
     
  2. Lowden Clear

    Lowden Clear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our country is in trouble, no doubt about it. And it is time for everyone who can lend a hand to actually stand up and do so. That includes those who sit back and coast on unemployment, suck off welfare, food stamps and get a free ride to the hospital for a paper cut. And for all those faking a back injury, maybe they can get off of SSI. If they won't do it because it is wrong to cheat, maybe they will do it for patriotic reasons.

    My business has taken a hit. I cut back. That's how it goes. We all have to sacrifice. But no, not those who are catered to by the government. Nope, that burden stays on the back of people like me. I'm tired of it. Know what, birds push their young out of the nest. But in the USA you don't. You just build a bigger nest for those who won't pay for it.

    Look at the free housing situation. They have big screens, cell phones, fancy nails and gold teeth, and they drive decent cars. I'm still wearing old shorts with holes in the pockets. But I pay for those people. I'm tired of it.

    And what about all the adicts and drinkers who are on SSI because they consider it an illness? I'm tired of paying for that as well. Yep, I'm just plain tired and the government is still spending 1.5 trillion per year more than it brings in. And tonight Obismal will want to spend another 400B. I'm (*)(*)(*)(*) tired.
     
  3. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Look, Obama would be able to get more done had he treated Republicans with greater respect during the Obamacare and Frank-Dodd debates.

    Obama would be able to get more done, if he stopped going to a business and saying "i'm on your side" and then turning around the next day at a union rally and whipping them up into frenzy about "punishing" people who are, in the end, innocent of all the wicked charges that have been laid at their feet.

    The entire business class of America is scared out of it's wits right now because they literally see Obama as the end of American Style Laisseaz Faire capitalism and the beginning of forced Social Democracy.

    There isn't a single business owner in this nation who wants to return to the days of the WPA with price controls, wealth caps, and all the other socialist garbage that FDR introduced into the US system.

    It's awful funny that after FDR died, the American People did an about face and began dismantling all of his "progress".. was that somehow a right wing plot as well?

    The fact is, Americans want as much economic freedom as is possible and left wing rhetoric today is ADMITTEDLY BRAZEN in it's call for a severe reduction in economic freedom in America.

    It's not just policies.. business owners are feeling under attack and under siege by an entire half of society!
     
  4. Lowden Clear

    Lowden Clear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you lecturing me?

    -14 trillion is less than zero. Can't put it more plain than that. When a society forgoes accountability and replaced it with a spread-it-around philosophy, you end up in the toilet. We are on a runaway course and you want to go faster.

    Free markets are messy. Always have been, always will be. Things rise and fall. It can be easy and hard. But that is the game of advancing and creating. Its a cycle. Government cannot take the bumps out of the road and when it tries to we end up with what you see today.
     
  5. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Silicon... you are nothing but words. Everything you said there is just pathetic attempts at partisan politics. I deal in reality. Using actual math, science, and logic. I don't care about how much you hate Obama or think businesses are sitting back not making profits because of uncertainty.

    The proof is not on your side. The proof is that the country lost $20 trillion in wealth and people are now over consumed in debt and much less equity than they thought. They no longer have equity in their houses, they no longer have large retirement portfolios. People are simply poorer and less willing to spend. It has nothing to do with Obama and your hatred for him.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The problem is not a psychological problem... it is a mathematical problem. Until you guys start applying actual math and reason to your economic approach, then you are nothing but partisan hacks.
     
  6. Lowden Clear

    Lowden Clear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well said, last line especially. The worst of it is the looters have always been able to count on the producers to carry their weight. An entrepreneur has a spirit that tends to overcome adversity. Liberals know this and throw adversity in their path wherever they can. But these days its different. We are holding back until sanity once again shows itself. We are sitting on trillions, just waiting. Personally I like to watch them squirm.
     
  7. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Yes, you need a lecturing. Because what you are saying defies intelligence. The Govt can and has played a major role in offsetting bumps in the road for decades. If you can't explain mathematically why we need $0 in debt and why we need to let the private sector work itself out, then no reasonably educated person is going to listen to you.

    Start sounding smart and people will take you seriously. Use things like numbers, graphs, logic... etc. If you are going against centuries of economic evolution and some of the smartest economic minds ever, then you are going to have to bring something more to the table.
     
  8. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Unemployment isn't so much the issue is that people who, do to technology, and the consequential industrial/social changes brought about by technology, are reducing the value of some labors. Some labors are simply not viable in America anymore to carry a solid, less educated middle class. There is NOTHING we as a society can do about that!

    The Economy is pretty much ALWAYS going to suck for the less educated. Read above, their labor is becoming worthless over time. This was predicted by technologists in the early 80's just as the PC revolution was beginning to take hold. The PC and Internet has changed, and yes in some cases ruined people's lives by destroying the value of their labor to below middle class status.


    I would argue that your idea of sacrifice is to consistently and constantly fund and ever expanding class of people whose labor is now worthless on the world market thanks to communications and logistics technological advances.

    Temporarily yes, but I honestly do not believe that the bulk of America, which is woefully complacent in regards to educational achievement and personal advancement, is capable of ever engaging in any type of labor that will give them a middle class status, so you are essentially advocating that a smaller and smaller group of people support an ever expanding one that will only continue to expand as technology reduces their labor to practically ZERO.

    It's not "tanking" life for those of us in the educated sectors of the economy are not tanking. Large welfare rolls at this time are a result of what I beleive to be structural and pretty much permanent reduction of labor value for many industrial processes.

    The economy is never going to "recover" to the level that you would agree to allow the beginning of austerity. Face it, the idea of a less educated middle class based around industrial labor is as dead wagon wheel makers and Model-T's.


    Are you really telling me that over 50% of the people on SSI disability are actually disabled and incapable of working in any meaningful fashion? I don't beleive that considering that the "crazy check" is literally a part of urban pop culture now a days.

    We all want to fix the infrastructure of this nation, but the last time Obama said he was going to do that the only people who got jobs fixing the infrastructure had to be a part of a union, or the company owned by one of his political donors, like Solyndra.

    Obama and his administration are MALINVESTING FOR POLITICAL GAIN AND NOT ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY!
     
  9. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Unemployment isn't so much the issue is that people who, do to technology, and the consequential industrial/social changes brought about by technology, are reducing the value of some labors. Some labors are simply not viable in America anymore to carry a solid, less educated middle class. There is NOTHING we as a society can do about that!

    The Economy is pretty much ALWAYS going to suck for the less educated. Read above, their labor is becoming worthless over time. This was predicted by technologists in the early 80's just as the PC revolution was beginning to take hold. The PC and Internet has changed, and yes in some cases ruined people's lives by destroying the value of their labor to below middle class status.


    I would argue that your idea of sacrifice is to consistently and constantly fund and ever expanding class of people whose labor is now worthless on the world market thanks to communications and logistics technological advances.

    Temporarily yes, but I honestly do not believe that the bulk of America, which is woefully complacent in regards to educational achievement and personal advancement, is capable of ever engaging in any type of labor that will give them a middle class status, so you are essentially advocating that a smaller and smaller group of people support an ever expanding one that will only continue to expand as technology reduces their labor to practically ZERO.

    It's not "tanking" life for those of us in the educated sectors of the economy are not tanking. Large welfare rolls at this time are a result of what I beleive to be structural and pretty much permanent reduction of labor value for many industrial processes.

    The economy is never going to "recover" to the level that you would agree to allow the beginning of austerity. Face it, the idea of a less educated middle class based around industrial labor is as dead wagon wheel makers and Model-T's.


    Are you really telling me that over 50% of the people on SSI disability are actually disabled and incapable of working in any meaningful fashion? I don't beleive that considering that the "crazy check" is literally a part of urban pop culture now a days.

    We all want to fix the infrastructure of this nation, but the last time Obama said he was going to do that the only people who got jobs fixing the infrastructure had to be a part of a union, or the company owned by one of his political donors, like Solyndra.

    Obama and his administration are MALINVESTING FOR POLITICAL GAIN AND NOT ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY!
     
  10. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed.
    That's the ********** strategy.
    We don't need to adopt their stupidity.
     
  11. venik

    venik New Member

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    Austrian economics, it's not a made-up fairy-tail it's been around for 100s of years, adam smith is arguably it's creator. And it's basic premise is one that everyone knows, you cannot learn if you never see the consequences of your failures. So, let them fail. In the great depression, the companies which survived it are almost entirely still alive today, they are the best companies. And they caused the economic boom of the 50's shortly after.
     
  12. Lowden Clear

    Lowden Clear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hate to burst your bubble there bub, but you ain't one of the brightest people you like to talk about. You talk about decades, I'm talking about how we were founded. We take a risk, we live or die by it. I hope you don't need a chart for that. This country grew because of the pioneer spirit, not because of the guidance of liberal chart drafters. It is the individual who built this country, not bureaucrats. And like anyone with common sense, you must balance your business so that the ink at the bottom is black, not red. Hope this helps.
     
  13. James Cessna

    James Cessna New Member

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    You are very correct, Lowden Clear.

    This fellow, akphidelt, has a lot in common with these people. They also voted for Obama!

    How Obama Got Elected... Interviews With Obama Voters

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8"]How Obama Got Elected... Interviews With Obama Voters - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you expecting the local charities, churches, red cross, united way, etc.. to just stand by and watch?

    Of course, there would be a correction in the free market shorterm, but the longterm would be prosperous and much less toxic.
     
  15. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    The Tea Party has no plan.. They are simply concerned and unhappy Americans.

    And, that is NOT a bad thing. .. but when the hollering is over they won't support Perry or Palin or Bachman..

    They are still open and looking for real leadership and ideas.
     
  16. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Have you ever even read Adam Smith's work? He would definitely not be an Austrian if he were alive today. He preached a well-regulated system to promote the free market, but he was very adamant on the limitations of a free market. Everything from being against inherited wealth, to being for stronger regulations as economies became more complex, etc.

    You have to realize that we live in a new world outside of 18th century Adam Smith reality.
     
  17. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    You are not saying anything of substance. Come talk to me when you are educated enough to have a serious conversation about real world economics.
     
  18. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Got any mathematical analysis to prove that?
     
  19. venik

    venik New Member

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    Yes and if you think he preaches regulation you are reading it entirely wrong.

    I.e. when he says "The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."

    Although this can be taken out of context to say he is for regulation, reading it as a whole he is saying regulation is often a venue of oppression.
     
  20. NetworkCitizen

    NetworkCitizen New Member

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    How you have unfortunately been schooled into the wrong idea of thinking by reading theories by elitists/statists.

    http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/6420.html
    Synopsis - federal spending actually decreases private growth..by Harvard.

    Here you go, another Keynesian-ish thinker burying Krugman in the mud of statist economics:
    http://modeledbehavior.com/2009/09/11/john-cochrane-responds-to-paul-krugman-full-text/
    Synopsis- Krugman is a statist moron who does not consider all of the factors involved with central government spending.
     
  21. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    You have to at least try to imagine where Adam Smith came from and his inherent mistrust for regulatory control by corrupt governance. But this does not mean he was against regulation.

    I have the book in front of me right now.

    "It is the great multiplication of the productions of all the different arts, in consequence of the division of labour, which occasions, in a well-governed society, that universal opulence which extends itself to the lowest ranks of the people"

    Adam Smith was for capitalism, but for a regulated system of commerce to allow people freedom of trade. He wasn't against Government what so ever. And he was from the 18th century. It's not like he understood our absolutely complex banking/fiat/global economy we live in today.
     
  22. venik

    venik New Member

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    I have no quarrel with that quote, but you're misusing it if you think he means we need to regulate via i.e. the EPA.

    There's regulation which makes the government smaller, and there's regulation like the FDA, EPA, CRA etc.

    When you speak of any regulation we have today, 99% of it is restrictive and 1% of it is freeing. Regulations which protect rights are freeing, but those regulations are few and far between. Regulations which enforce that there is only one cable company in my area, are not freeing.
     
  23. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    It's restrictive specifically because of our intensive legal system. Because of our legal system everything has to be put down on paper whether it should be legal or not. Does it provide really tedious and sometimes unnecessary regulations. Of course. But there is no way around it. If it is not spelled out in English, then there is no repercussions for your actions.

    I work in the oil industry and we have some of the most tedious and ridiculous safety regulations in any industry in the entire world. I mean it seriously eats up almost 15-20% of our budget. But you gotta understand why. If some guy slips because his shoes don't provide enough protection, he sues and gets $400-$800k. It is an absolute pain in the ass.

    But the EPA and other regulations stem from the legal system, not necessarily from Government control. Many of the oil field regulations outside of where they can drill and some environmental concerns are actually created by the oil industry themselves just because of all the legal ramifications.

    The EPA is a necessary evil as much as you hate it. The environment can not protect itself and I have no faith that the private sector would give a rats ass about it if it meant they could profit.
     
  24. venik

    venik New Member

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    I thought this was about adam smith.

    The EPA is a waste of money. We live in the evironment, destroying it is infringing on anyone who lives in it's natural rights. We do protect it with or without the EPA, we don't need the EPA to do it for us let alone without any congressional process. No matter how many regulations the EPA put in place, accidents are going to happen, and they are going to only make oil more expensive which hurts every aspect of the economy. Without the EPA we still have the court system to rule civil cases. The only thing they need to do to prevent accidents is for the companies to be subject to penalties for mishaps. The EPA isn't the only venue for this.
     
  25. akphidelt

    akphidelt Banned

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    Bull crap... we would not protect the environment if it wasn't for legal penalties to do so. If that is your position than we should just stop talking since you obviously have no sense of reality. Companies will stretch the law to every means possible until they reach a breaking point where they are losing profit. If they can destroy the environment and make money doing so, they would do so in a second. That is absolutely ridiculous to think otherwise.
     

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