More than 52,000 Canadians left the country for medical care in 2014

Can you read? I said I will take ours.

 

I said a system that covers Everyone, regardless of financial level, while also having enough resources to do so in a timely manner. The US system is incapable of this.

But, it's your system. If it works for you, great. Mine works for me. Wonderful.

 

Except everyone is not covered if they die on a waiting list like Canada has.

 

Uh...what? Covered. as in, don't have to pay for it. I'm still waiting to see how many people have died due to waiting....?

 

Free? You pay dearly to die on a waiting list...............

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=20232

CALGARY, AB—A typical Canadian family with two parents and two children will pay $11,320 in taxes, on average, for public health care insurance in 2013, calculates a new report from the Fraser Institute, an independent, non-partisan Canadian public policy think-tank.

 

Per capita canada actually pays half of the USA .
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP

And in the USA a lot more die that could have been prevented if it had any decent system:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2011/sep/us-ranks-last-on-preventable-deaths



So twice as expensive and lets a lot more people die. Gee and why are you attacking other systems? Because they are not perfect? "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

 

Really? So the average American family pays $26,000 a year for HC? This chart stops at 2011 and $8,000 per capita here. We'll add $200 per year like the chart shows and you get $9200 a year here. OOPS!



So tell me what other nations have that we don't. We don't have waiting lists like Canada. Read the title of the thread. No one is picking on anyone. So relax and try to keep up.

 

I got a real laugh out of the underlined. Non partisan in their own eyes maybe.

And that is fine. I have 1 child so I'll pay a little under that, but have on problem. But once again, how many have died specifically due to wait times...?

 

Really?
This takes into effect all costs for health care, you do realise the gov also pays parts of the expenses?

Ok perhaps I didnt use enough words to explain this.

This site:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP

States per capite for countries, and what do you know: 8,895 for USA (and rapidly rising btw)

Canada : 5741

As I said, very big difference meaning canada's health care is actually a lot cheaper .

The second source shows preventable deaths .

USA here again among the worst, showing the USA health care system is expensive and not really that good .

About every western/northern european country, canada, japan, south korea , australia,... Have cheaper and just as good or better health care then the USA.

Of course there are less waiting lists in the USA, a lot of people either dont get the care they need and simply die. So in the US you pay dearly to never even have a chance of being cured .

 

I would like to know how many of these people went elsewhere not because of wait times but because for most procedures, especially plastic surgery and dental surgery, it is far cheaper to go to a less affluent country and have it done there while on vacation. Anyone contemplating such a move should do a lot of homework to make sure that they are being treated by competent medical professionals but there is a thriving medical tourism business.

 

It's absolutely ridiculous how off you have been this entire thread. The Fraser institute article which you linked discussed that a Canadian FAMILY, with 2 adults and 2 children, pays 26,000 a year. The institute cherry picked the statistics for the area of Canada (alberta) with higher per capita incomes, but this is unimportant. You linked a per capita expenditure for each American citizen which is around $9000, a number which was calculated 4 years ago. Regardless, the per capita income figure from USA, if you want to compare it to the 4 person family stat from Canada, must be multiplied by 4. The result is a family expenditure of 36,000. And this is a number which is averaged for all of the United States, being measured against an "average family" from one of the most prosperous parts of Canada, who undoubtedly pay a higher rate than those in other provinces and cities. So the difference between 26,000 for a canadian family of four and 36,000 for an american family of four; yet the Canadian family is guaranteed access to healthcare. I realize the Canadian system is less than perfect, but your stat (which you used to frame the United States as a cost effective option) simply can't hold up to any logical scrutiny, due to the fact that the Canadian system covers all citizens and costs less on average.

 

Indeed the wait times are longer on average... but... the average life expectancy of a Canadian "80" is two years longer than an American "78". Many necessary treatment can certainly take a frustrating amount of time to get an appointment, but this is not to say that life threatening conditions are not a priority... because they are. And as another has already said, many Americans come to Canada for procedures that can be done more cost effectively than in the USA.

As an American who has lived in Canada I can tell you that both systems have their pros and cons and neither is anywhere near acceptable. Both the USA and Canada rank in the 30's on the WHO's list of countries with the best medical care... which is pathetic in both cases.

 

merging

 

The government?

You mean the tax payer.

The government gets ALL of its money from taxes.

Nice try though.

 

Life expectancy has nothing to do with the availability and/or quality of healthcare.

The United States is one of the most obese nations. Obesity is mainly caused by the lack of exercise and not eating healthy. Both of those are personal choices and has nothing to do with the availability and/or quality of healthcare.

And we know that obesity increases one's risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, etc...

 

I find the above an unrealistic argument as it is obvious to me that the availability and quality of healthcare has a direct correlation to life expectancy. What is the life expectancy of a diabetic that has no access to healthcare vs one who does? What is the life expectancy of a heart attack victim that has no access to healthcare vs one who does?

 

Obese people have more medical problems and complications than non-obese people, therefore their life expectancy will be shorter irregardless of the availability and/or quality of healthcare.

Medicine and medical procedures can only do so much for a person and if they are already obese, then they will have a harder time recovering than a non-obese person.

Do you understand now?????

 

I'm Canadian.

I wonder if these numbers are comparing the same things.

The number of ~6000 a year for Canada is for the gov't share by my memory. We are still on the hook for about 30% of our own health care costs above that (and they are also rapidly rising and our wait times are ridiculous and numerous procedures are not covered).

"Who is footing the bill?

Seventy per cent of health care spending in Canada is taken care of by provincial and territorial governments. They cover the costs of hospitals and doctors to a tune of about $148 billion.

On average, governments dole out about 40 per cent of their budgets on health care spending."​

http://globalnews.ca/news/932105/by-the-numbers-how-much-did-canada-spend-on-health-care-in-2013/

 

I argue that their life expectancy will be longer because of the availability and quality of healthcare. Yes their life expectancy is lower than average but much higher than if they were in an area with poor healthcare thus making it clear to me that availability to quality of healthcare has a direct positive effect on life expectancy.

And this has a direct and positive effect upon life expectancy. Said "Medicine and medical procedures" do not shorten life expectancy, they prolong it.

Indeed I do understand, and completely disagree that "Life expectancy has nothing to do with the availability and/or quality of healthcare."

 

Of course did I say something different?

For what? Fact remains USA has the most expensive health care system with mediocre care .

 

View attachment 34265

Yes it does, better health care makes people live longer, quite logic actually.

Yes that is one factor (and a not that big one differences between USA and canada arent that "big" , just as better health care , there are plenty others .

 

As more people are finding out, have health insurance doesn't mean the insurance company will be paying for your health care; until, you meet your avg. $5000.00+deductible and extremely high out of pocket. Meaning many that have insurance still can't afford to see a doctor. While there are still thousands and thousands of individuals seeking ER treatment with no means of paying for the care they receive. So, agree will other posts. Lower cost or subsidized premiums on high deductible, high out of pocket, narrow provider policies is going to help millions of people gain affordable health care. It will only mean more premiums for health insurance companies to collect and insurance for those with costly illnesses or who need expensive surgical procedures. But even then only after they pay their deductibles, out of pocket and only if the policy covers treatment needed for their illness and only if there are local physicians, surgeons and hospitals willing to participate in what is likely an extremely low reimbursement fee schedule. I wish all luck with these Exchange Policies but I have little hope that they will be as promised.

 

Why do members here think the U.S. Health Care System is mediocre at best? We have state of the art diagnostic equipment, Federal backed medical research and Medical Schools that include very lengthy residencies. Not always so in other Countries where Medical School tuition is far less and residencies not as long. We have more regulations, laws governing the health care providers than any other Country. The only thing that I may agree with is that our Physicians and Surgeons are often not able to prescribe the latest cancer, aids drugs used in other Countries due to U.S. over regulation. Nor can they try new procedures used in successfully in other Countries due to U.S. over regulation. Never the less, we have one of the best medical systems IMO. And, if you disagree, why not move to Canada if you get a costly illness or need costly surgery?

 

The point I was making is that many more US citizens seek medical care outside the US system (1.2 millions in 2009, I believe). There are NO perfect healthcare system. . .but the fact is that the Canadian and UK system, as well as the French, Belgian, and Italian, are AT LEAST as good and performing and A LOT cheaper than that of the US.

And even with access to excellent healthcare systems, SOME people are motivated to seek medical care abroad, not only for lower cost, but also for procedures and treatments that are NOT covered in their own country.

There is no fiasco with ACA! It is working as well or better than a new program works prior to the "bugs" being fixed. The fact is that, no matter how good a system of care is, if one can't afford it (as so many did in the US), it is still killing people for lack of access!

 

So people do not pay taxes for HC in Canada, there are no waiting lists, and no one dies waiting for treatment there. Then help me with this............

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uplo...fect-of-wait-times-on-mortality-in-canada.pdf

The Effect of Wait Times on Mortality in Canada - Fraser ...
www.fraserinstitute.org/.../effect-of-wait-times-on-mortalit...
Fraser Institute
by B Barua - ‎2014 - ‎Related articles
become a defining feature of the Canadian healthcare experience. Waiting for ... as a result of waiting lists for universally accessible health care. Numerous.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ty-in-canada.pdf+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#51



Appendix B: List of Causes of Death for AvoidableMortality Indicator

Infections • Enteritis and other diarrhoeal disease• Tuberculosis• Vaccine-preventable diseases• Selected invasive bacterial infections• Sepsis• Malaria• Meningitis• Cellulitis• Pneumonia• Sexually transmitted infections, except HIV/AIDS• Viral hepatitis• HIV/AIDS

Neoplasms • Lip, oral cavity and pharynx cancer• Esophageal cancer• Stomach cancer• Colorectal cancer• Liver cancer• Lung cancer• Melanoma skin cancer• Non-melanoma skin cancer• Malignant neoplasm of breast• Cervical cancer• Uterus cancer• Testicular cancer• Bladder cancer• Thyroid cancer• Hodgkin’s disease• Leukemia• Benign neoplasms

Diseases of the Circulatory System • Rheumatic heart disease• Hypertensive diseases• Cerebrovascular diseases• Ischaemic heart disease• Other atherosclerosis
• Aortic aneurysm• Venous thromboembolism

Diseases of the Respiratory System • Chronic obstructive pulmonary disorders• Asthma and bronchiectasis• Acute lower respiratory infections• Upper respiratory infections• Lung diseases due to external agents• Adult respiratory distress syndrome• Pulmonary oedema• Abscess of lung• and mediastinum; pyothorax• Other pleural disorders• Other respiratory disorders

Diseases of the Digestive System • Peptic ulcer disease• Diseases of appendix; hernia; disorders of gallbladder, biliary tract and pancreas • Chronic liver disease (excluding alcohol-related disease)

Diseases of the Genitourinary System • Nephritis and nephrosis• Renal failure• Obstructive uropathy, urolithiasis and prostatic hyperplasia• Inflammatory diseases of genito- urinary system• Disorders resulting from impaired renal tubular function

Infant and Maternal Causes • Complications of perinatal period• Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal anomalies• Pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium

Unintentional Injuries • Transport accidents• Falls• Other external causes of accidental injury• Drowning• Fires and flames• Accidental poisonings

Injuries of Undetermined Intent • Injuries of undetermined intent

Intentional Injuries • Suicide and self- inflicted injuries• Assault Alcohol and Drug Use Disorders •

Alcohol-related diseases, excluding external causes• Drug use disorders

Nutritional, Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders • Nutritional deficiency anaemia• Thyroid disorders• Diabetes mellitus• Adrenal disorders• Congenital metabolic disorders

Neurological Disorders • Epilepsy

Disorders of Musculoskeletal System • Osteomyelitis

Adverse Effects of Medical and Surgical Care • Drugs, medicaments and biological substances causing adverse effects in therapeutic use • Misadventures to patients during surgical and medical care• Medical devices associated with adverse incidents in diagnostic and therapeutic use• Surgical and other medical procedures as the cause of abnormal reaction
=================================================

So a Canadian family gets to pay $11,000 in taxes for the opportunity to die from one of the avoidable deaths listed above. And here's a real kick in the arse. In Canada, you can go broke paying for your meds. In B.C, they offer coverage for prescriptions up to a point. I take Sprycel for my Leukemia. Here in the US, it's $12,000 a month for 30 pills. I pay $25 a month though a program offered by the manufacturer. In Canada? You pay up to 4% of your income plus 30% after the deductible. Sprycel is $5,000 a month from a Canadian pharmacy. That means someone needing Sprycel in Canada will pay $18,000 per year for that prescription after the patient satisfies their deductible and 30% copay. And pray you do not need dental work in Canada. YOU pay for it.

So let's recap. A family of four on average earns $74,000 in Canada. Pays $11,000 in HC taxes, possibly another $18,000 if they need Leukemia meds and dental costs. Then the tax rate of 26%. So now we're down to $36,000 or $690 a week before dental bills. $1800 monthly on average for a mortgage based on average family income, food, dental, life.........oh and no tax deduction on the mortgage interest. That family is toast. What a life