The U.S healthcare fiasco

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Mike12, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, you've never read the definitions WHO uses.

    The WHO's definition of a healthcare system not only includes doctors, clinics, and hospitals that deliver patient care, but also "all the organizations, institutions and resources that are devoted to producing health actions." Government oversight functions, public health activities, personal health dollars, and health-care financing schemes are all part of the system.

    So the rankings are skewed based on the level of government involvement and the US is penalized for having a freer system than the majority of foreign States.

    I use standard the definition from peer-reviewed articles:


    Allocating resources when their supply is limited (EIU Healthcare International)

    The displacement of the interests of one group of patients by another (Spiers, J., The Realities of Rationing: ‘Priority Setting’ in the NHS, London)

    How many of a given intervention will be provided, to whom, at what cost, and under what circumstances (Rationing Health Care, Brit. Medical Bull. 51)

    Die kuenstliche Verknappung eines durchaus vorhandenen Angebots --- The artificial curtailment of supply when it is actually available (Cueni, T., Rationalisieren oder Rationieren?)

    In order not to trigger penalty payments, the KBV devised an Emergency Programme which would, in effect, ration drug prescribing for the rest of the year.

    The Emergency Programme proposed five steps:
    1. Waiting lists for prescription drugs and other prescription treatments (Heilmittel, which include physiotherapy, acupuncture etc.) except in life threatening or medically essential circumstances
    2. Postponement of innovative therapy to the following budget year
    3. Radical switching of prescriptions from brand to the cheapest generic
    4. Prior authorisation of expensive therapies
    5. In the event of budget being exceeded, ‘emergency prescriptions’ to be issued temporarily, for which patients would have to pay out-of pocket and personally claim reimbursement (in Germany, unlike France, patients pay only user charges out of pocket)

    Source: Why Ration Healthcare? Page 86
     
  2. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    Car insurance is an entirely different market and you very well know it. It is simpler to sell Car insurance across state lines why? Car insurance companies don't need to deal with different networks of doctors and hospitals across state lines and neither are they exposed to the vast differences in demographics across states and how this impacts healthcare. Dealing with different demographics when it comes to healthcare is much more complicated than it is for car insurance.

    The truth here is that if insurance companies wanted to sell across state lines, THEY COULD, nothing is stopping them. Having to deal with different state regulations is not their biggest barrier. Also, states are free to have different regulations, isn't this in the constitution? Health insurance is a largely privatized free market but a complicated market that is expensive and i don't think that selling across state lines would be as efficient and cost effective as a single payer system. No matter what you do, the free markets will demand that a lot of money goes towards profits and executive pay which is not something a single payer system will be beholden to. In addition, administrative costs in this Country are very high compared to other developed nations with single payer systems. Too much of our premiums goes towards waste and not towards actual healthcare. Now i do think there is room to improvement by advancing technology, streamlining things and increasing competition but i don't see it being able to rival the cost effectiveness of a good run single payer system. There is a reason why the US has historically ranked extremely low in its healthcare system compared to so many other Countries, some of them even emerging Countries!

    Now incidentally, i bet you don't like the individual mandate huh? yet you compare health insurance to car insurance, you do know car liability insurance is a mandate right?

    [
     
  3. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    what a nonsensical basket of bull crap
    what the hell does demographics have a dam thing to do with health care? a African American with high blood pressure is the same a Hispanic with high blood pressure. Caucasian having heart attack is the same as an Asian having a heart attack health care is health care treatment doesn't change because of ones demographics

    and car insurance companies have the same type of so called networks they have networks of repair and body shops which changes from state to state town to town
     
  4. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    wow... so a health insurance company selling in a state with predominantly sicker or older people doesn't have to do anything different than selling insurance in astute with predominantly younger and healthier people?

    i'm arguing with a person that knows little, a waste of time.
     
  5. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    So much nonsense it hurts... Look, insurance should not have any effect on the costs of services that they are insuring! Do you blame Geico for the cost of repairing your car? Do you blame State Farm for charging more for flood insurance along the Gulf Coast? The cost of the insurance MIRRORS the cost of service and the probability of the purchaser needing to use the service.

    As far as your misguided free market rant - you need to wake up. The fact that our current medical system is decidedly NOT free market is one of the biggest problems. As soon as you can google a Dr and get a price list for services you can come back and rail against the free market. As it stands, it's the most fair way to distribute scarce resources.
     
  6. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    If the industry were really operating in a free market this could not be true. There would be billions of dollars of incentive for a company to cut out the glut and provide the same insurance but at a fraction of the operational cost.
     
  7. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    nothing is stopping health insurance companies from selling across state lines, name me one federal law that impedes it. It is a free market, KNOW YOUR STUFF. If you tell me 'states have different regulations' this is still not a good reason because states regulate across many areas and impact many industries, this doesn't get in the way.

    So tell me, what is stopping health insurance companies from selling across state lines? name me the federal or state laws...
     
  8. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate? I'm sorry but the litmus test for a free market is not whether goods and services can be sold across state lines.
     
  9. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    tell me what is stopping health insurance companies from selling across state lines? looks to me you don't even know, well read up on the subject and once you are better informed, let's talk.
     
  10. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    Auto insurance just like health insurance, your average premiums are based on your zip code.
     
  11. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    Hospitals will never provide the public with their master charge sheet since they know anyone with health coverage, the health insurance company determines the real cost for those services. To prove this, all you have to do is find one of your explanation of benefits of when you received health care, look for the allowable fee and you will see it is different from what was billed.
     
  12. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    i still haven't heard an answer to why health insurance companies don't sell across state lines more than they do. There is no federal mandate and state regulations is also not the main reason. Those who claim it's not a free market, i ask why? tell me which regulations are stopping health insurance companies to sell across state lines.
     
  13. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    It is the health insurance companies that do not want to sell across state lines because for example: a person living in New York (higher premiums) will want the same rate as someone living in Montana (lower premiums). As I said before, premium rates are determined by your zip code.
     
  14. navigator2

    navigator2 Banned

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    It was a mess for the great unwashed. You pay now for the ones who pay zero premium. It's just that simple. Socialism. Yes, it's a dirty word. As well it should be.
     
  15. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    no because the treatments and requirements are the same just the amount of it change
    it is like comparing a state that has more car accidents then another
     
  16. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that can and should be changed the consumer has the right to know and it is in the governments power to make sure that happens
     
  17. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    It's a 'disaster' because a Democrat introduced it. If it were Republicans who did then it would have been applauded. That's the black/white, up/down reality of US political debate.
     
  18. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    well then it's a free market.... i keep hearing that there are some 'laws or regulations' that prevent insurance companies from selling across state lines and that it 'not a free market' but these people don't really know why they are talking about.
     
  19. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    I completely agree with you! However, not only should those fees be public information, the public should also have the right to a copy of the fee schedule of who they are insured by. This is important because now with high deductibles, a consumer can make a decision on going ahead with a medical procedure if they know what the real cost is for that billing code.
     
  20. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    BC/BS provides insurance in every state, Aetna, United Healthcare, Humana, and others also do business in multiple states. They are doing business across state lines however the consumer is limited to purchasing their policy in their home state since rates are determined by zip code plus the network is limited by those providers of care who contract with them in that state only.
     
  21. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    and do you consider this a free market?
     
  22. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    That is a very good question since our taxes has not been used responsibly or with the highest level of integrity. Individual contributions with no mandate will not work either if it is not structured properly and again with the highest level of integrity and accountability. We need massive change to how healthcare is delivered first to eliminate waste in cost and administration before we can tackle how it is to be financed that will cover everyone.

    I would like to see the medical community get more involved in coming up with ideas that would allow medical care to be affordable for everyone. I would like to see the entire insurance industry be eliminated from our healthcare system since expensive premiums combined with high deductibles renders their policy worthless to the consumer except with a catastrophic illness or injury. We can do better with handling those problems.

    If the government must run this then I think Medicare for the entire population with a new law that any surplus money paid into this system cannot be used for anything else but healthcare. We should eliminate employers from having to provide coverage since it ultimately discriminates from hiring the older worker. There are many ways to restructure the entire system that would make it affordable.

    The problem is since our economy has been stripped with the only one growing is the health sector, it won't be easy to change it since so many people are employed in this sector. Politicians depend heavily on political donations from our health industry where those donations allow the money flow going to people that are not involved in providing healthcare. CEO's of insurance companies and hospitals, their goal is to please the stock holders. We have large monopolies that is eliminating competition and it will get worse if the big 5 major health companies are allowed to merge with each other.
     
  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's free. Laws do not prevent marketing insurance across state lines. Insurance companies restrict themselves in this because they cannot logistically structure a PPO in every other state. Hence they cannot offer insurance with approved providers in other states so they keep those operations within their own state.
     
  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that what we have? Money has poured into the Trust Fund, far more in years gone by than now, and the money was invested in Treasury securities. Those securities remain in the Trust Fund earmarked only for use in Medicare expenses.

    How is your idea different?
     
  25. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    A treasury security isn't that just a piece of paper like an IOU with earned interest? The cash surplus (tax payer money) was used for other government expenses that had nothing to do with healthcare. How our those securities cashed in and where does this cash come from?

    The government has borrowed close to 5 trillion (cash) from the public funds and replaced them with treasury security notes. It is nothing more than an IOU note. In order to make good on these notes, the funding has to come from the tax payers to replace those notes with cash.
     

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