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Thread: Debate: Israel – victim or aggressor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khalil View Post
    I noticed what RevArchanist has said, so I have decided to respond to him. Here is the first part of my response.



    I find it hysterical that you try to base your information on what happened in the Middle East “right after WW1”.
    You do?? That's when and where it all begain. It's something called "The history of the conflict". Or, don't you believe in looking at the whole thing???

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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Are you going to sit there and tell us that the Arab nations didn't help arm their brothers in the Arab/Jewish civil war??? Come on Meg, tell the truth.
    What do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    No, the Arabs were fighting independently and for separate goals, as indicated by their later actions, such as Jordanian and Egyptian occupation of Palestinian territories.'
    You forgot Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq who were also fighting the Jews. All toll there were 5 Arab nations attacking Israel. And all 5 got their collective tails whipped.
    LOL This refutes what I said... how?

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    And my question to you is, who attacked who??? Dec.1 1947 was it Arabs attacking Jews or Jews attacking Arabs??? On May 15, 1948 was it Israel attacking her Arab neighbors or the Arab League attacking the new state of Israel??? Careful now...
    If you are referring to the Arab-Israeli War of 48, the Arab's started it. If you are referring to conflict in the Palestinian territories, it would be impossible to say who started it, though as I said only the Israelis perpetrated ethnic cleansing.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Good debating Megadeath. A pity Khalil isnt involved here yet. Hes got loads of detail.

    Truth Detector and Rev A are great examples of pro israel lunacy here.

    TD will usually be quite good, but hell make sweaping un backed accusations against millions of people and wont back any of the detailed history up, thus losing the argument.

    Youll find Rev A often diverts his arguments into irrelevancies as he sees fit.

    Then hell tell you thats what youre doing.

    Hell make many claims, will back about 10% up. And he'll throw in a few biblical justifications too.

    Theres really not a capable pro israeli debater, instead theres just a collection of American bigots making a few snide comments before leaving the discussion.
    "but it is nevertheless true that it is value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated land owes to the community a ground-rent, for I know no better term to express the idea by, for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    What do you mean?


    LOL This refutes what I said... how?


    If you are referring to the Arab-Israeli War of 48, the Arab's started it. If you are referring to conflict in the Palestinian territories, it would be impossible to say who started it, though as I said only the Israelis perpetrated ethnic cleansing.
    Israelis have never ever fought a defensive war.

    In 47/ 48 I think youll find Israelis crossed into the arab state before the arab powers crossed into the jewish state. Theyve never ever left. Exactly as they intended..
    "but it is nevertheless true that it is value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated land owes to the community a ground-rent, for I know no better term to express the idea by, for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice

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    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Israelis have never ever fought a defensive war.

    In 47/ 48 I think youll find Israelis crossed into the arab state before the arab powers crossed into the jewish state. Theyve never ever left. Exactly as they intended..
    Possibly, however I dont think the Arab states had a right to attack Israel at that point. If they sought to protect Palestinians, they could have, but this was not their intention. With regards to the Pals they wanted to take control of their land as well in most cases.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    Possibly, however I dont think the Arab states had a right to attack Israel at that point.
    Why do you think they did not have the right to at that point?
    Trust in God, but tie your camel.

    ~ The Prophet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goomba View Post
    Why do you think they did not have the right to at that point?
    Because there were people in the land designated as Israel who wanted a nation I do not believe that right should have been deprived them.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    Because there were people in the land designated as Israel who wanted a nation I do not believe that right should have been deprived them.
    One can't overlook Israel's unilateral declaration of independence (instead of working out a settlement with the Palestinians, they disregarded them and went their own way).
    Trust in God, but tie your camel.

    ~ The Prophet

  9. #59

    Default

    These questions are to anyone willing to answer. I know Margot did not write the article she posted and cited. That being said, here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot View Post
    Has he ever read the Bible and learned of the Jewish background to the area? Is he aware that the territory was not stolen from the Arabs, but partly designated as a Jewish homeland by the British mandate?
    So it belonged to the UK, not the people living there already? Or it was stolen from the people living there already by the British? That paragraph doesn't make sense to me. And if we're going back several thousand years, I guess anyone living in the U.S. or Canada needs to pack up and move out because we definitely stole this land from the natives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Margot View Post
    Or, that in 1947 the UN apportioned the land between the Jews living there and the resident Arabs, for the name “Palestinian” was only a recent invention?
    Recent as in when? I've heard this argument before, but I've never heard anyone put a time frame on "recent." I did, however, run across some WWI war posters that use the name Palestine, and they were sponsored by "The Tourist Office of the Jewish Agency for Palestine Jerusalem." Pretty wild, huh?

    Here's a link, but you have to click through quite a few posters to find it:
    http://firstworldwar.com/posters/usa2.htm

    Does WWI count as "recent" or are we talking anything not dating back to when the Israelis were actually called Israelites would be considered "recent"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Margot View Post
    Does he know that during the years 1947/48, the resident “Palestinians” attacked their Jewish neighbours with the help of neighbouring Arab states?
    When I put myself in the shoes of the Palestinians at that time, I can't help but think I'd certainly do the same thing. If someone came to my house and told me to leave so someone else could live there, I'd certainly not tuck my tail and run away!

    When I put myself in the shoes of the transplanted Jews at that time, I would most definitely want to defend myself and family, but I feel I'd completely understand the hostility toward my being there, on someone else's land regardless of how I got there.
    Last edited by Wabbit; Feb 19 2012 at 04:38 PM.

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    The Jewish State is a bully in disguise.
    here's the proof:









    The books were written by Israelis who condemn the racist imperialism of their government - therefore, nobody can say these writings constitute "anti-semitism" or hatred for Jews.
    Last edited by Mr_Truth; Feb 19 2012 at 08:06 PM.

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