Do we owe God obedience because God created us?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Modus Ponens, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    Let's just assume that God exists, and created us like the legends say.

    What do we conclude? That God is mighty, sure. Does God's prerogative to command and to judge us, derive from God's power? This is not logical - people (particularly Christians) should know that having power has no necessary connection to being good.

    Does God have authority over us, then, because this God is 'good?' But if God is truly good, how would we know? It is not logical to assert that God is good, merely because God declares himself to be good.

    If God is good, and we know this not from blind faith but from some sort of reason, i.e. a criterion that enables us to validly claim that goodness is somehow or other predicated of God, then it follows that our sense of 'the good' is independent of our knowledge (or even awareness) of God.

    If our understanding of righteousness is analytically distinct form our understanding of power, and if our appreciation of what is good need make no reference to God, then God, if God exists, is merely a mighty being and deserving of no more special deference than any of the rich and powerful among us. Who cares if God is there? He is unreliable, and no more deserving our devotion that the typical cult-of-personality tyrant.

    This religion section would be moribund, without its atheist contributors. Maybe we all should have a moratorium on posting here; this sub-forum could then die a natural death.
     
  2. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, that is about the best suggestion that I have seen you make to date.
     
  3. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    :omg:

    he basically made a fool of the theist and you didnt even catch it :-D
     
  4. Jim224

    Jim224 New Member

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    All I know is that my parents, not God, 'created' me. And even IF God somehow put me here, he certainly didn't raise me. My parents did.


    So I will never hold this god higher than them. Or anyone I have ever met for that matter. Because every person in your life has some, even if miniscule, effect on who you become as a person.

    God on the other hand, well, I have never seen him, so I hold him about as high as the characters in my dreams.
     
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  5. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

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    I would not be upset if this section reverted more to its original intent, and that was to discuss political issues that have a religious element. Almost all new threads I have made in this secion are of this sort.

    But even when the argument is purely religious, I still find it hard to resist because I do think of atheism as a branch of theology.
     
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  6. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    The issue is not so much owing a higher power respect, but the requirement by the higher power for his children to show such respect.

    Why create a race if they are required to worship you? Seems rather narcissistic.
     
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  7. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think so? I view his comments in an entirely different manner, and highly respect his final suggestion. I guess then it must be you that is offended by his remarks.
     
  8. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    OK, God exists and created us.

    I conclude that God is the Creator and so has the power over us. Gods prerogative comes from being God.

    God has authority over us because He is the Creator.

    God is good. And our understanding of good comes from our undertanding of God.

    God alone is righteouss. Without God you don't know what is good. I care that God is there. He is always faithful and worthy of our worship.

    Quantrill
     
  9. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No, He has that authority for one of two reasons: because it's our good pleasure to obey Him, or because we try to mess with one of His children, in which case that authority assumes the form of might.
    Since we're born with that knowledge, the real question is how we become disconnected from it.

    Ever ask them how long it took to draw the plans?
     
  10. JP Cusick

    JP Cusick New Member

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    I say you are mixing up "obedience" as a commandment instead of an instruction which is a subtle difference but a meaningful one.

    As like the Bible is an instruction book, as like the Owner's Manual for a car.

    Calling it as a commandment is not quite accurate since people break the rules regularly.

    But if one does not follow the"Owner's Manual" then the car breaks down, and people break down by not following the commandment instructions from God.

    Trying to view God and the Bible as though we have to do it or else we get punished, or do it out of fear for the God, is just naive or childish.

    Anyone can break the rules all they want - but they will self destruct accordingly.

    We do not owe God obedience, but we could be grateful for His instructions.

    As like honoring thy father and thy mother does not necessarily include obedience to thy parents.

    :sun:
     
  11. Jim224

    Jim224 New Member

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    No, because they already had the plans. They each had half of the plans, and those plans were combined. Through processes I'd rather not discuss when parents are involved.........gross.
     
  12. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    in a sense, you have a point.

    So let's all combine and think of what that theology is.

    I vote; an atheist is an evolved theist!


    Or


    How about: God is existence itself as ONE (all mass, all energy, all time=1), basically meaning: mother nature is god (the fignewton of mankinds imagination) Meaning: god be a 'she' (giggle giggle)
     
  13. since1981

    since1981 Banned

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    People need to stop looking up, and start looking in the mirror.
     
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  14. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Then I'd say their role in the creative process was so minimal as to be essentially nonexistent. Wouldn't you?
     
  15. Jim224

    Jim224 New Member

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    Not if you believe life experiences play a bigger part in personality-shaping than DNA. Which I do believe.
     
  16. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    But it really would seem that religion has always an inextricable political dimension - at its core is the question, "who can make who do what?"

    I do think it really makes sense to regard formal atheism as a worldview presupposing, and thereby derived from, theism. That is why, after all, I will as an atheist maintain that the burden of proof in the question of God's existence, is on the party asserting that a divine being exists.
     
  17. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting set of statements.

    In the first paragraph, it becomes pretty clear that what you are opposed to is the idea of 'authority' "who can make who do what?".
    Then the second paragraph you turn toward the subject of 'theism' and Gods existence.

    The problem I see with this, is that IF you and the non-theists of the world were to rid the world of any mention of God, you would still have god in your presence in the form of government. That's right. Government as the new god that would be controlling you and all the others, just like it is doing now.

    I figure it this way. You are afraid to tackle the Government, because you know you would find your rear locked away for a very long time; so you choose another entity who has clearly shown that HE is not going to interfere with the will of man, therefore you don't have to worry about that incarceration (at least not right now).

    Well, either way you turn, you are likely to always find someone who is going to attempt to dominate and through that domination (if gained), will have authority over you. You are fighting a losing battle before you even get started. Are you employed? Working for someone else? Better quit that job then.
     
  18. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    That is circular reasoning and illogical.

    That argument fails, for the reason I gave in the OP. Power does not confer moral legitimacy, does not confer the prerogative to command. Might does not make right.

    So does God have a good nature that God has no choice to obey? That seems unlikely, since God is at the least guilty of terrible crimes of omission.

    What makes something good? Is the good merely something we make up in our minds? Or does its meaning have an independent character? How about with God, then? Does God know what is good, or does God make up what is good? If God just makes it up, then God is a subjectivist, and not really good at all. If what is good is something that God can know, then goodness as a principle must be independent of God - it must be an objective thing, something not identical with God, and that God can recognize.

    Just for you to insist that "God is good," begs the question. Why are you always chasing your tail like this? Think, man. How do you know God is good? Any schlub can claim that he is the font of all authority. Is the only difference in God's case, that God has the power to put the hurt on you, if you disobey?

    How do you know that God is righteous? How do you know that only God is righteous?

    Why?

    How do you know?
     
  19. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand. What sense does it make to command what we would already do, from our own interest?

    How is God any different from the rest of us, in that regard? We all have the authority to impose ourselves upon and coerce those who would harm the children.

    The evidence tends strongly against this claim.
     
  20. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    You established the assumption. Don't tell me now its circular reasoning.

    I didn't say 'might makes right'. I said God has authority over us because He is the creator.

    God is good, and God is not guilty of any crimes. God alone is good. It is the clear statement of Scripture.

    Scripture is clear, God is righteousness.

    Because God alone is good.

    Because Scripture declares God to be so, and I know Him to be so.

    Quantrill
     
  21. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    (sigh) No, I am not opposed to the idea of authority. Authority is a practical fact of life; the political question of authority (in contrast to brute facts of power) is concerned with "who can exercise a legitimate monopoly of force in a social setting?"

    Well, this is just one more of the political right's recycled talking-points. Government is not a god; there are, after all, no gods. A given government may or may not have legitimate authority. I am a democrat; I believe that all legitimate political authority rests with the people, the body politic, the popular sovereign (in the words of John Locke and the Framers). That is where all genuine legitimate political authority lies. All governments have their authority derived from the popular sovereign.

    This is just silly. Part of the whole purpose of being a democrat, is to espouse a political order in which each person has freedom of conscience, and is not going to be punished for having the "wrong views." The reason I am opposed to the idea of divine authority, is that that idea is a metaphysical endorsement of tyranny as the preferred political order. In their heart, no monotheists want democracy - instead they want a king. That is the pernicious logic that they are driven by - it shows itself in a hundred ways in our politics.
     
  22. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    This is pablum. It may work for people too young to think for themselves, it will not work for adults. You do indeed believe that might makes right - that is what your view that God has authority because God created, comes down to. But might does not ever make right. It is a clear logical fallacy, to think that it does.

    Be honest about what you are doing. God is righteous, in your eyes, because God can do whatever he wants. That is hardly an adult's view of what true righteousness is.
     
  23. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    god created nothing. Crippled humans that can't deal with responsibility for their own actions created god.
     
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  24. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Ah, so Police power is not to be viewed as "brute facts of power"? Tell that to the many who have suffered Police Brutality. Tell that to some judges who had no choice in some cases to sentence some police officers for 'unnecessary use of force'. So you don't see a gun strapped on someones side a visual showing of 'brute force'? Your original statement did not specify "who can exercise a legitimate monopoly of force in a social setting." What you are doing now is rationalizing (making excuses) in an attempt to justify your position, when your position has already been stated in different terms, and which carry a different message.



    More rationalizations. Sovereigns are those that hold power over others. You claim that you are a democrat, so if I were a republican and the democrats were to win the popular election, then democrats would have authority over me. I did not authorize such power to be exhibited against me. Cool... now consider this... suppose that the 75.6% of the US Population (which have declared that they are Christians) suddenly decided to place someone in office who was a die-hard Christian who fully intended to execute the Laws according to the teachings of Christ. Then what. Are you then going to be so satisfied as to allow you to say,,, well that is just an exercise of popular political power? No! You will rant and rave about such a system. Oh Well... it would be a legitimate exercise of force being applied against you. So now, what really is "legitimate"?

    In answer to that question, let me give you this little legal excerpt.
    https://litigation-essentials.lexis...Rev.+881&key=baab1b6fb359d7e33cdc08567c69e5ba
    "Introduction

    In his landmark work, The Lustre of Our Country, 1 and in his casebook, The Believer and the Powers that Are, 2 Judge John T. Noonan, Jr., examines the historical development of the relationship between the religious conscience and state power. 3 Noonan makes clear that at the heart of James Madison's belief in religious liberty is the principle that the obligations of faith must have priority over the demands of the state. 4 In this regard, Madison is taken as a linear descendant of St. Peter, who responded to the Sanhedrin when he was forbidden to teach in Christ's name, "We must obey God rather than man." 5"




    Oh well...You seem to be stuck in a society where the religious conscience is determined to be superior to that of the state. Actually, more Christians need to be made aware of this FACT of law.
     
  25. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    No, I don't believe might makes right. But might makes one in control.

    God has authority over us because He is the Creator. The Creator is greater than the created.

    God is righteouss. And so all that He does is right. He is not right because He is almighty. He is right because He is God.

    Quantrill
     

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