Going Godless: Secularism Makes People More Ethical

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by janpor, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Going Godless: Does Secularism Make People More Ethical?

    Non-believers are often more educated, more tolerant and know more about God than the pious. A new wave of research is trying to figure out what goes on in the minds of an ever-growing group of people known as the "Nones".

    In 2010, only about 7% of Belgian goes to a Church regularly -- in 2016 this number will be reduced to 0% according to Sociologists.

    It isn't a surprise for me that Secularists often know more about relgion that the so-called "believers" and, because of that, are more ethical. :clap:
     
    Doug_yvr and (deleted member) like this.
  2. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    BTW...

    :omfg:

    :shock:

    Talk about being backwards!

    (!)

    Unbelievable.
     
  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am fairly certain that it is or can be proven that, regardless of whether you are right or more moral, being a dick about it is not going to change anyone's mind, it just makes you look... like a dick.

    People don't get persuaded by info from "the other side", they get persuaded by finding these things by themselves.
     
  4. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm fairly certain that nobody in this thread is "being a dick about it", Swensson.
     
  5. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    12,185
    Likes Received:
    415
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I hear they get banned less often as well!

    ...oh wait.

    :-D
     
  6. janpor

    janpor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    9,046
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    ...

    In fact, they get less banned as well too!

    Thanks for adressing that point as well!

    Many thanks!
     
  7. KSigMason

    KSigMason Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    11,505
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Don't forget self righteous and arrogant.
     
  8. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    A high proportion of Europeans - very sensibly - don't attend churches but - at least if the UK is anything to go by - consider themselves to be Christians. If they knew anything about American religion they'd be sure they were right in both things.
     
  9. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    16,593
    Likes Received:
    415
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I am an atheist. For me, religious folks are illogical. But, pretending secular, many of whom are liberals, are ethical is hilarious.


    I can't accept that the traditional faithful are more or less ethical than the secular faithful. Actually, I see precious little difference in them. The faithful are all quite similar in spite of the varying faiths.

    For the faithful, pursuing and promoting their faith, whether your Jimmy Swaggart or the President, trumps any idea of ethics, decency, honesty.
     
  10. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I think the matter is complicated by the inconsistencies of 'believers', and what looks very like hypocricy. It has been pointed out elsewhere that American fundamentalists, for instance, accept none of the positions Jesus puts forward in the New Testament, yet make much of being 'Christian'. I don't think much of their ethics, but are they anything to do with Christianity? Again, a high proportion of highly ethical non-believers were brought up in real Christianity and their behavior tends to reflect it. All in all, I think it's a complex issue.
     
  11. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The OP is absolute nonsense. Atheists are more ethical only when being ethical is redefined. It's telling that the OP uses "ethical" instead of moral. Ethical has to do with impeccable conduct in dealing with our fellow man, being moral means being righteous before God and before man.

    Atheism has never been an impetus for going out to the furthest reaches of the globe to bring medicine, food, clothing, and the gospel of Christ to the most destitute souls. Nobody founded a hospital on atheism. Nobody has ever opened an orphanage in Africa because they were motivated by the belief that there is no God. In fact, the belief that there is no God and no afterlife is a sure disincentive to "store up your treasures in heaven". If God doesn't exist and we are accountable to our own individual standards of morality, then living a life of pleasure and ease becomes man's highest attainment. Children in Sri Lanka can starve. Ethnic cleansing in Uganda can go on unnoticed. It becomes all about me when God is no longer in the picture.

    The morality of man is all about convenience which is why a whole class of human beings, the unborn, are mercilessly slaughtered in the name of freedom and choice for others. The morality of man places his own priorities above all else and so abortion on demand serves as supreme example of how depraved and evil humanism is even at its very best.

    The belief that there is no God and nobody to whom we must give account has accounted for 120 million deaths in the 20th century as the depths of human impeity was put on world display, the humanists leading the way.

    When man realizes that he cannot save himself, that being as good and moral as he can be, he encounters resounding failure, he realizes his need for a savior. Sinful humanity can rejoice that God sent his Son in the form of a tiny baby, becoming one of us. Jesus took upon himself the sins of mankind so that all who believe upon him shall be saved from the greatest to the least. We think we are rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing but don't realize we are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. (Rev 3:17) As a lot we pine away without the grace of God, but through Christ we may have what is otherwise unattainable; complete forgiveness of our sins and eternal life.

    And everyone who calls on the name of Christ will be saved.
     
  12. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't do religion, but I avoid labeling myself a atheist, because most outspoken atheist are mean spirited, self righteous, and hypocrites.
     
  13. Someone

    Someone New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Those laws are on the books but are unenforceable according to the courts. That was already challenged in South Carolina and the challenger won. There's no much point in wasting our political capital fighting to get the useless unenforceable laws removed from the books (liberals in South Carolina have little enough political capital to expend, and the atheists here are almost all liberals too), not when we're having to fight for the survival of a basic social safety net or other seemingly obvious concepts. It's just not worth pursuing, because it won't change how people are elected in practice. In practice, a non-religious person still could never actually get elected to office, even if the laws on the books said he could hold it.
     
  14. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm glad you're not one of those. I've taken refer to those who most loudly proclaim themselves to be atheists as God haters because they have an agenda and a passion and a hatred for God and religion. Those who summarily reject the notion and existence of God are best referred to as materialists; they believe in what they can see, touch, measure, and understand. Materialists are non-plussed by the topic of God. They don't get mean, they don't go on the attack. When somebody says "God bless you" or "Merry Christmas" to them, they don't get upset but instead take it at the value of the person wishing them well.

    The God haters on the other hand are truly spiteful people. They are the driving force behind the removal of crosses, Ten Commandment displays, Christmas trees, Manger scenes, or any mention of God in the public sphere. They have a driving agenda that doesn't just disregard the notion of God but sees itself in an epic battle against anyone who believes in God and expresses that belief.

    Put more bluntly, they are a**holes. You're not, it seems. I'm glad to know that.
     
  15. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    34,039
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    You're correct; it is all VERY complex. Great point!
     
  16. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,225
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    You make it sound like the religious never killed anyone. I also must point out that I have yet to see anyone who said "we only live once thus all life is meaningless." All the non-believers I've talked with believe that life on this planet is more valuable, not less, because this is all we have. Once you realize we only live once you can start to see why it is important for everyone to be treated fairly and equal; to be free to live as they wish so long as they don't harm others.
     
  17. Someone

    Someone New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But secular humanism has been, and atheism poses no barrier to it either. Atheism doesn't promote very much, since it is nothing more than a common lack of belief in something. It's the philosophies of atheists that motivate them to action--and secular humanism is one that can well motivate people to go out and help others.

    "Spreading the gospel of Christ" is not ethical behavior.

    Again, bad comparison. You should talk about the systems of belief that atheists hold, not atheism itself, which is nothing more than word which describes a lack of belief.

    Clearly--very clearly--you've never actually talked with a secular humanist about morality. Convenience is not even a remotely accurate description of the basis of humanist morality.

    Abortion is an instance where no side has a clear moral high ground. The people who want to condemn women to being baby factories aren't really being very moral either. Freedom is rarely a convenient aspiration, but it is a moral one.

    The morality of god places the believer's own narrow vision above the actual suffering his ideology causes, and so opposition to abortion serves as a supreme example of how depraved and negligent Christianity can be, even at its best.

    The belief that there is a god and that he approves of everything you do has accounted for at least five times that. It's funny how the theists always seem to ignore those pesky third world conflicts motivated by god or the mass suffering caused by their own opposition to contraceptives and sex education. Every AIDS death in Africa is at least partially the Christians' fault. I mean, if you can blame deaths due to mass starvation in China on atheists, we sure as hell can blame AIDS deaths on Christians due to their well known and insistent opposition to contraceptives and sex education.

    Do you really want to play this body counting game? Because the deaths caused by communism have nothing on the deaths caused by "godly" capitalists. Every death caused in a conflict the US sparked, or in a rebellion the US backed, is at least partially the fault of a Christian US president--just like you apparently think that every death indirectly caused by bad economic planning in communist states is partially the fault of atheism. Theism is no shield that protects a person from engaging in immoral actions.

    Humanists and communists get along together about as well as oil and water. It's a bit like putting an orthodox jew and an orthodox Muslim in the same room and letting them argue about Israel. The fact that they're both theists or both atheists is less important than the insanely wide division between their viewpoints.

    Which is an utter lie. Every good action ever undertaken by a human being has been his or her own personal decision motivated only by their own will. Humans are every bit as capable of making good sound ethical judgments as they are making immoral ones. God will justify either course of action, because he is a fictional character who speaks only the words a person wants to hear. If a person seeks to justify their actions with god, whatever those actions may be, more times than not, they'll get the answer they want, because it's not god giving them answers, it's that person deluding themselves into thinking they're getting universal approval for their beliefs.

    God promotes evil and good in equal measure, because it is nothing more than a meaningless excuse created by people who are, themselves, evil and good in equal measure.
     
    JSNY818 and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    34,039
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    You make excellent points!

    I'd add this (especially for 'Christians'):

    If we would honor the essence and meaning of Christ as He lived, then our lives and religion would be more meaningful (even valuable) to those who may not now 'believe'.

    What I see today, is an OLD PROBLEM that has taken on its current form; religion seeking to promote itself through 'power' (politics). That isn't a 'Jesus' kind of thing, but people in many eras have screwed up and associated earthly power, with the will of Christ.

    It is a problem that people keep allowing to occur, time and time again. :(
     
  19. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    17,158
    Likes Received:
    140
    Trophy Points:
    63
    More than churchgoers?
     
  20. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    15,669
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    0
    About tied.
     
  21. speedingtime

    speedingtime Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There's been some studies done that show when someone has to read or memorize a moral "code" (such as the Ten Commandments) before doing an activity that may give them incentive to cheat or be dishonest, (particularly ones involving money) that they cheat less then if they are not given it to memorize.

    I don't think this means that we need religion to be moral/ethical though. More though that we need to agree to a set of moral standards and not lose sight of them.
     
  22. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That is absolute nonsense. Too many times to count have I been checked by remembering Scripture and chosen a different course of action. To say that the Bible incentivizes me to impious behavior is like saying the police incentivize crime. It's absolutely absurd.
     
  23. speedingtime

    speedingtime Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think you're misunderstanding me, I'm saying the opposite.
     
  24. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,225
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    You misread it. He's saying having a moral code is a good thing. I agree it is good to have a moral base. I think Kants categorical imperative makes for a great start.
     
  25. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    17,158
    Likes Received:
    140
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The police do create incentive for crime.

    Oh, never mind.
     

Share This Page