Being under 18 shouldn't make you a slave

Discussion in 'Human Rights' started by Sonofodin, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    In the US, we have an age of majority/consent of 18, under this and your human rights are severely limited.

    Why should anyone be forced to live with someone else and basically be their parents property? If a child or a teenager wants to be economically self sufficient, why shouldn't they have the right to? You can't give people rights based on their age, everyone matures differently.

    This wouldn't be taking away parents rights either, if a child wants to live and be supported by their parents or guardians, he or she has to follow their rules. You don't need a law for that, it's just common sense. Not everyone wants to do that, people of any age should be able to go look for work, have sex, and make decisions like everybody else.

    Before you go saying, well then a five year old is going to run away and work in a factory, use a little common sense. Children don't stay with their parents because their is a law saying they have to, many kids run away in spite of the law. It's the need for economic support that keeps them under their parent's rule.

    The same can be said about anyone, if you want to live somewhere and be financially supported, you'll have to follow the rules of the person supporting you; no laws needed, it just is.
     
  2. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Have yourself emancipated. The thing is, observations have shown us that most under 18 yr olds do not have the mental capacity to do such a thing.

    If you believe all that have yourself emancipated as a minor. Contact somebody with family services, etc., and see what they can do. The thing is, it's hard for the typical 16 yr old to get a job that will allow them to be economically self sufficient.
     
  3. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    What observations? What are you basing this on? IQ? What?


    Firstly, you shouldn't have to get permission from someone else to have basic human rights.

    Secondly, getting emancipated isn't easy and you need your parents permission.

    Third, it's harder for a child to get a job because of the laws in place. Child labor laws, make it much more difficult for a child to get a job, only some places hire you at 16 or so. Most places only hire workers 18 and up.
     
  4. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    People have been watching people for history. Those observations make us realize that the great majority of under 18 yr olds do not have the capacity to care for themselves. We also look back at our own lives, and realize how unready for life we were at 18.



    Not easy, but it doesn't need parental permission.

    I wouldn't hire an under 18 yr old for some things. It is the right of a company to hire who they want.


    The other side to this is that your parents are slaves to you. They are required to provide you with food, shelter, healthcare, etc. It's a two way street.

    So what's the problem? Tired of curfews, or that your parents have taken porn off the internet?
     
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  5. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Where are you getting this from? You're just making sweeping generalizations about a population of people without anything to back it up. Who is we? Everyone isn't the same, maybe you weren't ready but some people might be.

    You're wrong. In New Jersey, without a parents permission and a means of supporting yourself, you cannot be emancipated.

    I agree, but when their are laws in place barring a company from hiring whoever they want(ie: people considered children) it makes it harder for children to find jobs.


    You're missing the point, they are only slaves because they want to be. The mother chose to have a child or made choices that led to the child being born, it isn't the same thing.

    First of all, I'm not a minor, so stop trying to attack my character and just address the points of the discussion.
     
  6. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    Someone obviously isn't clear on the concept of slavery. Maturity is not synomymous with whining for men.
     
  7. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Very few.


    States differ. The means of supporting yourself makes sense, though.



    Well, your post reads like a typical high school student who doesn't like his curfew.

    Regardless, most Western societies have decided that around 18 is the demarcation between childhood dependence and adulthood. There is a reason for that--18 is the age at which most people are minimally capable of adult decisions. yes, there are some people that can do that at 14, and there are others not capable at 40. 18 is a pretty good guess for when most are capable. Again, it's not just the U.S., but most of the Western World.
     
  8. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    In Texas, the age of consent is 17. You can quit school, move outta your parents home, live under a bridge and basically screw up the rest of your life if you're so inclined.

    Enough kids actually take that route that I believe the legal age should be 21... maybe even 25.
     
  9. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Well, the constant ad hominem attacks make you sound like an ass, knock it off.

    I'm aware that they have made that the age.

    The point is, you have no right to tell someone else when they're capable of "adulthood". Maybe I should have the right to put you up for adoption if I deem you unfit to be an adult, would you think that's okay?
     
  10. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I don't, but the government and society does have that right. I do agree with you that this isn't a perfect way to do it. There is no perfect way to do it. Western society has pretty much agreed that 18 is adulthood. It's a pretty good guess for the majority of people. This is a spectrum argument. On one end of the developmental spectrum, a 3 yr old can definitely not go out on their own. I would say the same up to about 9 or 10. After that, it gets arbitrary. I've met 11 yr olds who could survive on their own. I've met 11 yr olds (intelligent ones at that) who could barely tie their shoes. So, what is your suggestion? Do we throw all age criteria out, and allow 3 yr old runaways to move out on their own? How about 10 yr olds?

    Also, based on common law from probably the 1400s on, I do have the right to determine that with my two sons (aka the slaves). I can make them get up in the morning. I can tell them when to go to bed at night. I can make them take out the garbage. I can feed them brussel sprouts for dinner. It's the only practical way to do it. They don't have the skills or abilities to live on their own. Hence, they haven't earned the right to do so. Now, will this change somewhat over the years? Yes, when they are 18 they can refuse to do the above. However, at that point, they will be booted out of the house with the clothes on their back, and whatever they have gotten as presents or have earned with their own money.
     
  11. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Society isn't a sentient being. It has no rights. It's only individual people making choices.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Ok, then a large group of people choosing together have that right. Also read my expanded edit.
     
  13. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Look, I agree with you that most children aren't ready to go out on their own, but that's exactly why an age of majority isn't necessary!

    C'mon, it's kind of silly to think a three year old would run away, it's common sense that children would stay with their parents and have to listen to them until they can become economically self suffient. All I'm saying is, since not everyone matures at the same rate, having a set age severely limits freedom.

    If you're ready to do your own thing then you should be able to. If you want to rely on someone else, you have to follow their rules. As I said before, you don't need a law to enforce that, it just happens naturally.

    Anyway, just because a large group of people think they can do something, it doesn't give them the right to. Lynch mobs had no right to kill black people, but they did anyway.
     
  14. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No they're not. Children have most of the basic human rights plus a whole load of additional ones and many fewer responsibilities in return. It's not punishment, it's protection.

    We can and do. Of course maturity varies but it still exists. Given that there is no simple way to judge maturity, simple cut-off ages are required. It's not perfect but it's much better than nothing.

    No, it would take away their responsibilities though.

    Any age, really? 12 year-old strippers OK in your utopia?

    There are five year olds in various parts of the world working in factories, mines and the like (with or without parental consent) in mjaor part because those countries don't have the protections you want to do away with.
     
  15. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    As I stated in a previous post, it isn't necessary. Kids that aren't economically self sufficient wouldn't be able to leave. Kids that are, would. No laws needed.

    No it would not, a mother still has a responsibility for her child, and would still be charged with negligence if it's an infant. Parents give their child's up for adoption now and forfeit responsibility, this wouldn't change that.

    If it's consensual then yes, what makes sex worse than any other activity? I don't see sex as an evil, inappropriate thing.


    That has to do with the poverty they live in, not parental protections.
     
  16. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What about the kids who think they could be self-sufficient but are wrong (or fail by no fault of their own)? Would the state support them as it does adults or would they be expected to crawl back to their parents? Would the parents be obliged to take them back?

    I never said it was evil or inappropriate. What you are suggesting though is that an individual can give informed consent for anything fundamentally legal at any age. If you can see any problem with that concept, there is no helping you.

    Method, motive and opportunity. While extreme poverty increases the motive, lack of legal protections and the ease that young children can be threatened and manipulated is the method and opportunity. There is no reason to assume that there would be zero motive even in the US (in fact I'd be surprised if there aren't currently illegal child labour in the US already - you're just looking to legitimates the business).

    I just think you're stirring up a whole load of potential problems for no practical benefit. You've not identified any actual problem you're looking to fit beyond a matter of high principal.
     
  17. Sadistic-Savior

    Sadistic-Savior New Member Past Donor

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    Can you give me an example of a basic human right that children do not have?


    LOL, no you dont. Thats the whole point of emancipation...you are removing your parents as your guardian against their will.


    The reason we can make sweeping generalizations is because every single adult, without exceptuion, used to belong to that "group" at one time. Not only do we all have experience being kids, we have MORE experience than any child, because we have already gone through all of it.


    What? How DARE you make sweeping generalizations about those children!Who are you to take away their rights and tell them what is best for them?


    We cant make laws for the exceptions. You do have recourse if you really think you are more mature than most people your age. Thats what emancipation is for.


    Who should get the final say as to whether you are ready?

    Should a three year old be allowed to go off on their own if they think they are ready? If not, why?


    Why not? Thats kinda the point of democracy. You dont like democracy?


    Are you saying you think toddlers should be able to participate in sex if they want to? If not, why?
     
  18. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Define economically self sufficient. How will you judge that someone is economically self sufficient?

    IMHO, it's easier to say 18, and be done with it.


    I judge my infant to be economically self sufficient......

    It has consequences that can be totally life altering. Most 15 yr olds do not have the ability to recognize the responsibility that could be thrust upon them.



    It's because they aren't protected from child labor by child labor laws. In the U.S., pretty much kids under the age of 14 are not allowed to work for that reason.
     
  19. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    Shouldn't be necessary.
     
  20. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I have some sympathy with the OP, and, as I turned 18 six weeks ago, I am a legal adult and you lot (many of whom have been dismissing me as a kid since I joined) have to take me seriously now. :-D

    I'm not sure quite what point Sonofodin is making, but it almost appears he is being 'piled on' a bit for introducing an interesting topic. Apropos of which, I think a lot of under 18 year olds are quite mature, and would be quite capable of looking after themselves were they living independently.

    I also agree that some of the restrictions placed on teens (even myself at 18 in respect of staying out late and drinking,) are a bit Draconian. Like I can understand parents being concerned about chicks, but what can happen to a 15-18 year old guy? Like we're big enough to take care of ourselves in a fight, and we are not going to get in the pudding club, are we? :mrgreen:

    So how about objectively examining what he has to say? And I don't think he meant human rights in the UN sense, but many teens are not afforded all rights adults are.
     
  21. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    At 53 I wish I could still live by Mom and Dad's rules!! I am happy it is 18 because kids have a right to be kids !! signed agrumpy old fart:)
     
  22. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    When you are in your 40s, and look back at yourself at 18, it will make much more sense to you. Most 18 yr olds think they can handle anything life throws at them. I know I did. I now (at 45) know I was wrong.

    I think the OP is exaggerating the slave aspect a bit. Child labor laws prevent that, for the most part. Also, most parents have a sliding scale in terms of freedom for their teens (unless circumstances (i.e. abuse of rules) change that).

    (Also, the OP claims to be older than 18)
     
  23. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Leo you have always presented yourself as an adult!
     
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  24. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    They can't live where they want, can't travel, can't decide what should be put into or taken from their bodies, can't work and more.


    Look up NJ emancipation laws, you need parental consent.



    Everyone's experiences are different, to think you know more than someone else because you're older is just pompous and untrue.



    I'm not telling them what's best. If they can support themselves at 10 years old then that's great.



    Even after emancipation, your opportunities and rights are severely limited. Besides, emancipation has an age requirement.


    This is so silly, do you honestly think that would happen if their wasn't an age of majority law? What stops kids from running away now? Certainly not government, they night get them back sometimes. Kids will run away if they want to, law or not.

    No, I don't. I'm an anarchist, but that's a different topic.

    As long is it's consensual and no one is raped or hurt then yes. I see sex as no different than any other activity. Do you think cutting a babies foreskin off against his will is better? Anyway, it wouldn't matter, Society abhors the idea of pedophilia so people that tried that probably wouldn't last long.
     
  25. Sadistic-Savior

    Sadistic-Savior New Member Past Donor

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    They can do all of that stuff if they are emancipated. Though I am not sure I agree that those are "basic human rights".

    If they are not emancipated, their parents are responsible for their actions. Dont you think it would be unreasonable not to give parents control over these things if they are being held responsible? Kinda unfair to the parents isnt it?


    If you are making the claim, you are expected to provide evidence. Your claims are not correct by default.


    No, parental consent is not necessarily required. I am guessing NJ does the same thing.


    Obviously the majority of adults agree with me (in other words, have had similar experiences) or else the current laws would have already been removed long ago...right?

    Should we start a poll on here to find out how many adults agree with me? What do you think the results would be?


    Why is it sillier than saying the same thing for a 10 year old or a 12 year old? What objective measure are you using to determine when it becomes "silly"?


    LOL


    I think it is safe to say you are in a tiny minority. It explains a lot about your other arguments.
     

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