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Thread: Defining Jihad: its early inception and modern use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    The shiite do. Not the Sunnis for the most part.
    I disagree. LOL You really dont seem to have grasped the material that you yourself refer to. You should know for example how modern Islamists, which you are fond of quoting, are a "revivalist" movement - one of reinterpretation and application of Islam to solve socio-political difficulties. As an example of their modern edge, they are very often individualistic. In the same vein, jihadis have entirely distorted Islam, especially the concept of jihad, in the same way. Jihad is a collective duty, but they have changed it to an individualized and sporadic concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Late 90s and Egyptian shariah court branded a professor an apostate for questioning Islamic doctrine that condones the owning of a slave girl and taxing the jews.
    Could you give a link to that? Also, given what I have described above, I hardly see how this is evidence that supports your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Such things are settled law, no longer open to interpretation
    Maybe in your world, not on planet earth.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    I disagree. LOL You really dont seem to have grasped the material that you yourself refer to. You should know for example how modern Islamists, which you are fond of quoting, are a "revivalist" movement - one of reinterpretation and application of Islam to solve socio-political difficulties.
    Revive a strict, literal interpretation that was followed in the past. Not some new reinterpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    As an example of their modern edge, they are very often individualistic. In the same vein, jihadis have entirely distorted Islam, especially the concept of jihad, in the same way. Jihad is a collective duty, but they have changed it to an individualized and sporadic concept.
    No, we can read the bukhari hadiths, Here are the first 26 of 52 verses that contain the word "jihad"

    You dont need horses, swords and armour for an inner struggle. Inner struggles dont result in booty if you are successful and death when you are not. YOU distort Islam.

    http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/


    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
    Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

    Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
    The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."

    Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
    I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

    Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
    The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."

    Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
    Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

    Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
    The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."

    Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
    I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah.

    Volume 3, Book 31, Number 121:
    ...So, whoever was amongst the people who used to offer their prayers, will be called from the gate of the prayer; and whoever was amongst the people who used to participate in Jihad, will be called from the gate of Jihad;

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 724:
    Allah's Apostle said, "A pious slave gets a double reward." Abu Huraira added: By Him in Whose Hands my soul is but for Jihad (i.e. holy battles),

    Volume 4, Book 51, Number 33:
    When 'Umar got a piece of land in Khaibar, he came to the Prophet saying, "I have got a piece of land, better than which I have never got. So what do you advise me regarding it?" The Prophet said, "If you wish you can keep it as an endowment to be used for charitable purposes." So, 'Umar gave the land in charity (i.e. as an endowments on the condition that the land would neither be sold nor given as a present, nor bequeathed, (and its yield) would be used for the poor, the kinsmen, the emancipation of slaves, Jihad, and for guests and travelers; and its administrator could eat in a reasonable just manner, and he also could feed his friends without intending to be wealthy by its means."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
    I asked Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." I did not ask Allah's Apostle anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 42:
    Allah's Apostle said, "There is no Hijra (i.e. migration) (from Mecca to Medina) after the Conquest (of Mecca), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
    (That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:
    A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 56:
    ,,,Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband 'Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Mu awiya.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 79:
    On the day of the Conquest (of Mecca) the Prophet said, "There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately." (See Hadith No. 42)

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 81:
    In the life-time of the Prophet, Abu Talha did not fast because of the Jihad, but after the Prophet died I never saw him without fasting except on 'Id-ul-Fitr and 'Id-ul-Aclha.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 85:
    ....He told us that Zaid bin Thabit had told him that Allah's Apostle had dictated to him the Divine Verse:
    "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives.' (4.95)
    Zaid said, "Ibn-Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating to me that very Verse. On that Ibn Um Maktum said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I had power, I would surely take part in Jihad."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 87:
    Allah's Apostle went towards the Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and saw the Emigrants and the Ansar digging in a very cold morning as they did not have slaves to do that for them. When he noticed their fatigue and hunger he said, "O Allah! The real life is that of the Here-after, (so please) forgive the Ansar and the Emigrants." In its reply the Emigrants and the Ansar said, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 88:
    The Emigrants and the Ansar started digging the trench around Medina carrying the earth on their backs and saying, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will I carry on Jihad as long as we live."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 104:
    The Prophet said, "Good will remain (as a permanent quality) in the foreheads of horses (for Jihad) till the Day of Resurrection, for they bring about either a reward (in the Hereafter) or booty (in this world."

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 112:
    The one for whom they are a source of reward, is he who keeps a horse for Allah's Cause (i.e. Jihad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Revive a strict, literal interpretation that was followed in the past. Not some new reinterpretation
    LOL I'm sorry but its new. Individualism being the example as I sight that is most relevant to this thread. You are so ignorant you probably have never heard of fard kifaya and fard 'ayn.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    No, we can read the bukhari hadiths, Here are the first 26 of 52 verses that contain the word "jihad"
    Why should we read them? What do they tell us that is disputed?

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    You dont need horses, swords and armour for an inner struggle. Inner struggles dont result in booty if you are successful and death when you are not. YOU distort Islam.
    That's right. The "greater" jihad is about struggle outside of warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    You already quoted these and I already gave a response which you did not reply to.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    I wasnt presenting it as a date of the post fool. Copied and pasted what revealed he was in Jordan.
    Why? You should apologize now while you have the chance. I ought to report you for not only accusing me of something that is completely wrong and BLATANTLY so, but also for wasting mods time.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    Why? You should apologize now while you have the chance. I ought to report you for not only accusing me of something that is completely wrong and BLATANTLY so, but also for wasting mods time.
    Did you post it at the Islamic site? Are you alleging they copied and pasted you?
    I dont at this point care too much one way or another and can now direct my criticisms directly to you as the claimed author. Care to comment? The essay claims Jihad, is "mostly attributed to military ventures" as some kind of western misconception when in fact we can see it is because in the Bukhari hadiths it is "mostly attributed to military ventures".

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Did you post it at the Islamic site?
    For the trillianth time - NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Are you alleging they copied and pasted you?
    For the trillianth time - NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    I dont at this point care too much one way or another and can now direct my criticisms directly to you as the claimed author.
    Why only now do you not care? Because you were totally wrong? I'll be waiting for an apology.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Care to comment? The essay claims Jihad, is "mostly attributed to military ventures" as some kind of western misconception when in fact we can see it is because in the Bukhari hadiths it is "mostly attributed to military ventures".
    Read the whole passage:
    "As you can see, jihad is the Islamic concept of moral striving and the struggle against impurity of the self AND tyranny of society. Whilst it is also a concept of moral striving for personal purification, it has historically been mostly attributed to military ventures. It’s a theory of just war, if we look at it through the eyes of Western concepts of the same caliber, which has experienced various stages of development and use."

    I never said this was an entirely Western perspective, I jihad cna be considered a just war theory through the Western perspective.

    For the third time now, I must ask, what were your boring quotes from al-Bukhari trying to prove?
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post
    For the third time now, I must ask, what were your boring quotes from al-Bukhari trying to prove?
    They DIRECTLY contradict your assertion that it is an incorrect usage,to consider jihad a “holy war”. You attributed this misconception to "propaganda dating to the Crusades" when we can see that it dates at a minimum back to the bukhari hadiths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegadethFan View Post

    Conclusion


    Given the information provided above, and the history, origins and applications of jihad, it would appear there is no considerable different to Western concepts of just war theory.
    [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    Nothing like the western concept of just war. Wars of Apostasy fought after Muhammads death were to force the people to remain loyal to Islam, which they had failed to do when they failed to pay their tax to the Muslim rulers. Within 80 years of Muhammads death they were waging jihad (the "jihad" that requires horses, swords and armour and lead to either death or booty) against Spain in the west and Afghanistan in the east. Conquering more subjects to pay tax for the privilidge of being allowed to live another day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    They DIRECTLY contradict your assertion that it is an incorrect usage,to consider jihad a “holy war”.
    How so? Jihad being related to warfare IS NOT the same as jihad related to the concept of "holy war." You have established another logical fallacy in your argumentation - non sequitur.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    You attributed this misconception to "propaganda dating to the Crusades" when we can see that it dates at a minimum back to the bukhari hadiths.
    LOL Again, where did I see the warfare linkage was wrong? No I specifically linked the idea of "holy war". Bukhari doesn't mention "holy war", does he? He mentions jihad, ie fighting in a just war, as a noble virtue - EVERY society would agree with him. You have not substantiated your claim and are cherry picking my essay, like you do all of your sources, to manipulate my contention and present a false argument. Its quite amusing to what lengths you will go. I'm still waiting for an apology.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    Nothing like the western concept of just war.
    How so? Where is the inconsistency? You cant represent two lines. Please write the following passages that say do not start hostilities and cease fighting when the enemy wishes. Do you not feel intellectual feeble in having to manipulate information like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Wars of Apostasy fought after Muhammads death were to force the people to remain loyal to Islam, which they had failed to do when they failed to pay their tax to the Muslim rulers.
    Correct. They also, by breaking their alliances, declared war. Most established their own divisional religious and political systems. It was do or die.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Within 80 years of Muhammads death they were waging jihad (the "jihad" that requires horses, swords and armour and lead to either death or booty) against Spain in the west and Afghanistan in the east.
    Yes... and?

    Quote Originally Posted by dixon76710 View Post
    Conquering more subjects to pay tax for the privilidge of being allowed to live another day.
    No different to any other system at the time, and in many cases far better. Take the 'reconquista' of Spain. Under the Muslims, Christians and Jews lived under varied boundaries of tolerance. Under Christian rule, the Muslims were persecuted and the Jews driven out entirely. The Muslim empires were ahead of the time in this regard.

    Still waiting for that apology.
    Last edited by MegadethFan; Nov 20 2011 at 04:56 PM.
    ---------------------------
    I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
    Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.

    "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky

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