TheMuslim rule of Spain?the most secular liberal state in Europe or apartheid regime?

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by litwin, Nov 5, 2011.

?

What was it?

Poll closed Nov 16, 2011.
  1. the most secular liberal state in Europe ?

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. bunch of the apartheid regimes?(most of the time)

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    The Muslim rule of Spain?the most secular liberal state in Europe or a bunch of the apartheid regimes?
    1
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxMi5gh7wrc&feature=related"]Al-Andalus : Alhambra Palace قصر الØ(*)مراء - YouTube[/ame]

    2
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/christopherhowse/3646811/The_Muslim_rule_of_Spain/

    we talk here about the whole Europe(Lisbon-Ural mountains) not just the about Franks.
     
  2. RollingWave

    RollingWave New Member

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    well... compared with with what happened after the Emirate of Granada was finally taken out.... or what happened in Sicily after the HRE took over etc...

    We could look from the more simplistic aspect of folks voting with their feet and lives, Andalusia was almost unarguablly the most populated region in early half medieval period. it's population as a share of the area decreased dramatically over the later half of the period. part of it was of course otehr areas growing (espeically France) but a large part is also because the area's population declined rapidly during and after the Reconquista.

    It is easy to focus on some particular aspect of any medieval state and claim it as barbaric, but a more realistic view should generally involve a comparason with it's comtemporary.

    Though it should be noted, that the Christian Kingdoms of Spain in this period was also considerablly more ... tolerant so to speak, as the reconquista escalated both sides became increasingly less so, that the Andalusians were forced to ask the Tribal armies of Northen Africa such as the Almoravids and Almohads come in was one of the big turning points of the era.
     
  3. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    you sources please, was Andalusia more populated then the "big Constantinople" aria?
     
  4. Flag

    Flag New Member

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    I live in Portugal and I had to study all of this about the muslim rule.
    What I can say is that they developed our countries and if it wasnt them the discoveries wouldnt be possible.
     
  5. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    Portugal discoveries maybe, Hollands and English/France´s discoveries would be more possible
     
  6. Flag

    Flag New Member

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    Knowing that England and France followed Portugal and Spain and Dutch policy was first based on stealing from Portugal and Spain as well as the english one was also based on stealing from others.
    The arabs gave an interesting contribute to the discovery age.
     
  7. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    no, you are wrong here. if it were not Castile it would be an other European state for Christopher Columbus. dont forget That Denmark has its colonies in Greenland an they knew perfectly about the new world
     
  8. Flag

    Flag New Member

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    Age of discoveries werent just America.
    When Colombus got there the portuguese were already settling in Africa. In fact Colombus tried to get support from the portuguese king John II.

    Back to the muslim rule again.
     
  9. Flag

    Flag New Member

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    Age of discoveries werent just America.
    When Colombus got there the portuguese were already settling in Africa. In fact Colombus tried to get support from the portuguese king John II.

    Back to the muslim rule again.
     
  10. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    and they went far much deeper and longer then Arabs did whole the way form Lisbon to Calcutta
     
  11. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    In Muslim Spain Jews joined Muslim guilds or formed their own.. That was unheard of in Europe.
     
  12. Flag

    Flag New Member

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    I know. Madness.

    Christians were treated better under muslim rule than jews were treated under christian rule.
    christians were allowed to be christian, and they lived peacefully with muslims when christians took over under the first portuguese king muslims and jews were granted their guilds and lived with equal rights than everyone else, then under the following kings they were forced to convert or face punishment.
     
  13. m81

    m81 Member

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    Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain

    there you go..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

    Birth of the Golden Age

    ''After 681, the Christian Visigoths of Hispania persecuted the Jews severely; therefore, the Jews welcomed the Muslim Arab and mainly Berber conquerors in the 8th century. The conquered cities of Córdoba, Málaga, Granada, Seville, and Toledo were briefly placed under the control of the Jewish inhabitants, who had been armed by the Moorish invaders. The victors removed the Christian Visigoths' oppressive restrictions and granted the Jews full religious liberty''

    End of the Golden Age

    ''The major Jewish presence in Iberia continued until the Jews were forcibly expelled en masse due to the edict of expulsion by Christian Spain in 1492 and a similar decree by Christian Portugal in 1497''

    nuff said..
     
  14. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    street level of .... read academical literature its not that simple in contractions, the "happy" Jews in Moorish Iberia and the "unhappy"Jews in the Catholic Spain and then the "happy" Jews in THe OE
     
  15. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    buy a book... this one for example [​IMG]
     
  16. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    They had street lamps, sanitation, running water and no epidemics... They also had a real renaissance in the arts, medicine, literature, translating the classics.

    Something must have been going right or they wouldn't have had time to accomplish all that.

    Meanwhile, my ancestors were painting themselves blue.....
     
  17. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Guess Wheatcroft didn't know there were also Jews in Muslim Spain.. mostly descended from Berber converts.
     
  18. m81

    m81 Member

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    you have all the reference at the end of page

    Notes

    ^ The Ornament of the World by María Rosa Menocal, Accessed, 12 June 2006.
    ^ a b Lewis, Bernard W (1984). The Jews of Islam
    ^ a b Cohen, Mark R. (October 1995). Under Crescent and Cross. Princeton University Press. ISBN 069101082X.
    ^ Daniel J. Lasker (1997). "Review of Under Crescent and Cross. The Jews in the Middle Ages by Mark R. Cohen". The Jewish Quarterly Review 88 (1/2): 76–78.
    ^ a b Sephardim by Rebecca Weiner.
    ^ Fred J. Hill et al., A History of the Islamic World 2003 ISBN 0-7818-1015-9, p.73
    ^ Mark R. Cohen (1995), Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages, Princeton University Press, pp. 66–7 & 88, ISBN 069101082X, retrieved 2010-04-10
    ^ Mark R. Cohen (1995), Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages, Princeton University Press, pp. xvii, xix, 22, 163, 169, ISBN 069101082X, retrieved 2010-04-10
    ^ Mark R. Cohen (1995), Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages, Princeton University Press, ISBN 069101082X, retrieved 2010-04-10
    ^ Granada by Richard Gottheil, Meyer Kayserling, Jewish Encyclopedia. 1906 ed.

    [edit] References

    Esperanza Alfonso, Islamic culture through Jewish eyes : al-Andalus from the tenth to twelfth century, 2007 ISBN 978-0-415-43732-5
    Mark Cohen, Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages 1995 ISBN 0-691-01082-X
    Joel Kraemer, "Comparing Crescent and Cross," The Journal of Religion, Vol. 77, No. 3. (Jul., 1997), pp. 449–454


    happy ready
     
  19. RollingWave

    RollingWave New Member

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    I was thinking of the Western European area in general, though yes, Constaninople was probably more populated or at least similar, since there were considerable arguements tha at least at some particular points Cordoba had a higher population than Constaninople, though pre-modern population stats and figure is often fuzzy at best.
     
  20. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    some links?
     
  21. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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  22. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    question how many churches were functional in Cordoba? hwy did Maimonides's family run away? if it was so polerant in Muslim "Spain"?
     
  23. kilgram

    kilgram New Member

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    There was many. Also the Jews had their own buildings.

    And Muslim Spain in that period was more tolerant than other regions. And Christians, Jews had possibilities to change of class category...

    Obviously, this freedom always being compared with other territories of the same period. And Christians, Jews... had more freedom than in the Catholic Spain.
     
  24. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/christopherhowse/3646811/The_Muslim_rule_of_Spain/
     

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