Keystone pipeline delayed until 2013

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikemac, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. mikemac

    mikemac New Member

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    Keystone pipeline delayed until 2013
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/11/10/keyston-pipeline-route.html?cmp=rss

    The Harper administration and the Alberta Premier are crying the blues.

    And they are suggesting that Canada can sell the un-refined oil to China.

    Are they braindead. Canada has it's own refineries. Why would they want to pipe it to Texas to have it refined there.

    It seems to me that the Harper administration and the Alberta Premier are more concerned with temporary jobs in the US building the pipeline than they are concerned about permanent jobs for Canadians. If it was refined in Canada it would supply permanent Canadian jobs in the refinery as well as permanent Canadian jobs to truck it to Texas after it was refined.

    Take the vote on the side of the web site above. It's already showing 54.21% in favour of Alberta processing the bitumen here in Canada.
     
  2. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    I agree.. and evidently its the tea party peoperty owners alond the Keystone route that want more environmental impact studies.
     
  3. websthes

    websthes Banned

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    Most of these environmental groups are fronts for big oil.
     
  4. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    The objective is to use NAFTA to pipe it to a Free Trade Zone in Texas where it will be refined and sold overseas at a higher price.

    Its all about profits and tax avoidance.
     
  5. mikemac

    mikemac New Member

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    That's right Margot. The intent of the pipeline was to pipe it to Port Arthur, Texas, a free trade zone to avoid taxes then to be sold overseas, not for US consumption at all.

    "The oil industry is pulling a bait and switch scam with Keystone XL – offering it as a path to economic and national security when the pipeline is mostly meant for export. According to the State Department, only 20 permanent jobs will be created by the pipeline. Even the pipeline company acknowledged that only “a few hundred permanent jobs’ will be created. Claims the pipeline will created 100,000 jobs are false."
    http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/ddroitsch/dont_be_fooled_-_the_keystone.html

    What a scam. And Harper's administration would have known all about this too.

    Have you ever asked yourself why pre-tax prices for gas are less expensive in the States than they are in Canada, when Canada is the US's main oil supplier? It doesn't make sense at all. Canadians are getting shafted all around with NAFTA.
     
  6. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Good post.. you make it understandable.. Yes, the Canadians are getting screwed too.. and Americans are getting jammed by the politicians.
     
  7. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Map North American Refineries....I don't think Canada has much capacity left and must need to ship someplace, while prices are high, to support a business.


    http://www.thegasgame.com/features/refinery-status/


    Exactly what taxes are being avoided, to what Government and just what makes you think a refined product surplus wouldn't be sold to the highest bidder, anyplace?
     
  8. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Read up on NAFTA and Free Trade Zones.. If the Canadian oil companies have to build pipelines east and west to Canadian ports they pay a higher tax rate for transit in Canada.
     
  9. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From your post, I agree, the crude will be refined and shipped from the Gulf Coast or if shipped to China, extra cost not only taxes but transport of the crude. It wouldn't make any business sense to ship to China.

    I'll run some figures later, but to pipe crude 1600 mile is less expensive than piping it 1000 miles, paying additional taxes and then shipping many thousands of miles to China. Said another way, even without the tax, it doesn't make any business sense...
     
  10. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    Well.. plug this into your thoughts.. Refined petroleum products bring higher prices in foreign markets than in the US or Canada.
     
  11. jackson33

    jackson33 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not really; If China bought a futures contract for -x- dollars, any other person/business/country could have bought it as well. Getting a commodity to your location is the buyers responsibility. Shipping crude and probably a refined product (not sure) would cost between 2.20 to 2.60 per barrel or the equivalent, to China from Western Canada (6600M) or the Gulf Coast (7600M). U might add comparatively there is virtually no cost for pipeline transport, if owned by the shipper, even then it's cents on the barrel/equivalent.

    I'll add, feeling your concern is really environmental, that currently Brent Crude (European, Persian Gulf Markets) is selling at higher prices than West Texas Crude, meaning the final products if the same end product, will cost anybody more.
     
  12. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    No.. my primary concern is not environmental.. although TransCanada has a crappy record. I grew up around pipelines everywhere.. flew them, camped next to them, walked them and I know they can meet very high safety standards.

    Refined product commands a much higher price overseas.. and a much higher price than raw crude. When you crack out the sulphur and urea you can also sell fertilizer.. so there is huge downstream potential.

    Actually OPEC tends to be a dollar less than domestic or North Sea crude...

    Between NAFTA and the Free Trade Zone everybody will make a higher profit margin than they could otherwise .. and I don't object to that either.

    I object to having it jammed down our throats in a big rush.. I object to the lies and the political footblling that is going on.
     
  13. Peter Szarycz

    Peter Szarycz New Member

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    Margot coined this issue very well. Unlike say, Libya which looked to satisfy its domestic oil market first selling it to Libyans at reasonable prices, oil produced in Canada is always sold at world prices, and one way or another will be sold to highest bitters - Europe or China. If the whole purpose of the Keystone pipeline was to ship oil to the free trade zone of Texas to avoid paying export taxes, then it makes much more sense to send oil directly to China via BC and cutting out the Texas middleman, while at the same time not running a serious risk of polluting the farmland in the Mid-West. NDP was right in doing its part to kill this project.
     
  14. Peter Szarycz

    Peter Szarycz New Member

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    I don't know what's the feasibility of building a pipeline through the rockies, but it seems strange that Canada is still importing 1 million barrels per day, which apparently represents 47% of oil consumed in Canada.

    http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ca&v=93

    http://danny.damours.net/wordpress/canada-an-oil-importer

    Why would the tar sands investors go off with elaborate plans to sell oil to China and Europe through Texas, whereas there is a ready market for the Alberta oil in Canada? All it takes is to extend the TransCanada oil pipeline further east, rather than laying down a new one through to Texas. Currently it seems, the consumers in Eastern Canada are getting ripped off by paying for imported oil, whereas the tar sands investors are scheming big to sell the nearby oil at world prices i.e. to a highest bitter. This seems like a wasteful arrangement, where markets are always half the world away from the resource, involving a dozen middlemen. If the TransCanada pipeline were extended east, this may put a few refineries in St. John's out of business, but new ones would go up in Ontario and Quebec. Such construction projects although massive in scale yet smaller than the Keystone, would create jobs jobs jobs. And it would make oil until now exported to Canada from Algeria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Venezuela, the UK and Norway, available to United States, China, Europe and India.

    Of course the subject of extending the TransCanada pipeline may only be freely discussed now in the mainstream media, only after the Keystone project perilously fell out due to environmental pressures and political partisan reaction, and the big business behind the Keystone gave it up as a lost cause.
     
  15. Peter Szarycz

    Peter Szarycz New Member

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    In retrospect, that Hibernia project better deliver on the quantities of oil as promised.
     

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