Evidence for God, Evidence for freewill just the same

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by prospect, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    I have see some posters asking theists for evidence of God,which of course when all is said and done,still comes down to one's personal belief.

    At the same time, I have seen a few of these same people profess that they have 'freewill'.

    But when it comes down to it,they have absolutely no more evidence for freewill (just like us having no evidence for God) and yet they are sure they have it. This also comes down to one's own personal belief.

    Let's leave God/omniscience,etc.. out of the equation and show me the evidence that you have freewill ...

    Explain to me why you think you could have ever done anything other than what you have done.

    I'll push this further and state that I think this is somewhat hypocritical for those asking for evidence of God.

    Thoughts ? :)
     
  2. WongKimArk

    WongKimArk Banned

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    "Free will" is a meaningless concept outside of a salvation scheme in which people are supposedly held responsible for their actions resulting in either eternal d@mnation or eternal reward.

    Unless one believes in such a salvation scheme, free will does not matter for anything.
     
  3. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodTNPp12rg"]Sam Harris on The Illusion of Free Will -1/3 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Let's just stick to the Merriam standard definition there guy.

    : voluntary choice or decision ..
     
  5. WongKimArk

    WongKimArk Banned

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    Who cares about the Merriam Webster definition?

    It's still meaningless outside of a salvation scheme.
     
  6. prospect

    prospect New Member

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  7. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Who cares about whether they have voluntary choice or decision ? People who have thoughts.

    Heck, Sam Harris cares. lol
     
  8. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    It is very interesting, almost disheartening. :/
     
  9. WongKimArk

    WongKimArk Banned

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    No... only people who do not understand what free will means and why the concept has any significance.

    It is really just a beard for the fundamentally unjust Islamo-Christian foundation scheme. Outside of that, it is pretty much a pointless idea.
     
  10. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    If it is presumed that one does not have free will, then there arises the question of who and or what is making your decisions for you and who or what is forcing you to make such decisions and execute such activities that you have 'decided'(?) upon taking? Go ahead now and name your task master.
     
  11. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Well you answered your own question if that is your answer.

    This is why I said to use the definition as I, and pretty much everyone else on the site has defined it to be. (Not to mention Merriam.)

    EDIT:Just so you don't derail off topic any longer.

    Do you thing you have voluntary choice or decision ?
     
  12. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    I thought it was spot on but I leave room for discussion because if that video can be refuted successfully, I'd like to hear how.
     
  13. WongKimArk

    WongKimArk Banned

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    It was always a rhetorical question in the first place.

    Don't know, don't care. It wouldn't matter one way or the other.
     
  14. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Actually it was your attempt to derail the thread playing definition games. Nice try but it is an age old argument,predetermination vs. freewill and the fact that everyone defines freewill the same for the purpose of that discussion only shows this.


    Maybe not to you but it does to others. Perhaps if you don't know or don't care, quit trolling the thread.
     
  15. WongKimArk

    WongKimArk Banned

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    No... I don't generally play that game. That franchise belongs to you and Incorporeal, and sure enough, you jumped into your standard knee jerk attempt to define your way out of your rhetorical hole.

    The age old argument is only meaningful in the context of the Islamo-Christian salvation scheme. It is a meaningful discussion there because it demonstrates the internal contradiction and self refutation of those two religions. But once divorced from the salvation scheme, free will makes no difference whatsoever. It has no pragmatic conceptual purpose or meaning. It simply no longer matters.

    I am not trolling. I am making a very important point... one important enough that you appear to be quite threatened by it.
     
  16. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    I am not sure if it can be; if our actions are determined by subliminal systems in the brain before we actually decide to act on the thought, then is that free will?

    Do we know we are going to make that decision on a subliminal level before we make it?

    Then is that free will if we are unaware of what guides our decisions?

    I find the question very interesting, more so because it is based on neuroscience.
     
  17. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see someone muster up the courage to answer the question I posed above, in a manner that is sensible.
     
  18. FreeWare

    FreeWare Active Member Past Donor

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    In context of salvation (which I agree with WongKimArk is the only context relevant to the concept) could there be evidence of the opposite of free will? For example, how would you characterize a brain damaged person?

    Terry Schiavo, for example, did she have free will?
     
  19. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, not, she did, she didn't, she could have but wouldn't have, maybe, potentially, etc....
     
  20. TheRazorEdge

    TheRazorEdge Member

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    What are my choices here?

    Is free will a test by a higher power to see if I'll make the right decisions for whatever ends they might have?

    I would probably have to believe in that higher power first to go with this one.

    Is free will instead a way of countering determinism; that things are planned and inevitable, perhaps by that same higher power, or perhaps not?

    I hope not because that would be a poor counter. Our decisions may have been a part of that inevitability all along. Inevitability seems as likely as a higher power, so let's move on.

    Is free will a way of explaining individuality, a thing that separates us in nature from pack animal?

    This is probably most likely.

    I'll go one more though.

    Is free will just a label for something that never needed a label in the first place?

    I think this is also likely.
     
  21. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Wait....So you are claiming that because people can think for themselves, it proves that God exists?
     
  22. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    No .. lol not even close.
     
  23. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    You asked and stated - "Who cares about the Merriam Webster definition? It's still meaningless outside of a salvation scheme." -

    So let's look at the Merriam definition of 'freewill' to see if it is meaningless outside of the "salvation scheme."

    1: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
    2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention ..

    Has nothing to do with salvation as I am proposing it and My question was never a rhetorical one.

    Except that question has been around at least since Hinduism and I completely disagree with your term "meaningless."

    Look at the neuroscience that Wolverine has brought to the table.

    I retract that statement and apologize for it as well. But you are incorrect in thinking I am threatened by your point. I don't really see how that is relative but either way please continue.
     
  24. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    I'm speaking more in 'context' of a neuroscience/psychological standing. I don't think the brain damaged person had anymore choice in that than she did in being born.

    Well doesn't Terry Schiavo seem to be the perfect evidence of the opposite of freewill ? What does that have to do with salvation though ?
     
  25. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Wolverine, You understood the OP perfectly and have an advanced understanding about why I have little to no belief in freewill.

    I think freewill is very real and synonymous with awareness. i.e, you learn from the illusion.
     

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