Can a good person be poor, and a bad person be rich?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Daybreaker, Nov 30, 2011.

  1. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering if we all think this is possible.

    Is it possible, in the capitalist meritocracy, for a good person to not have enough money? And likewise, is it also possible for a person to have tons of money without being a virtuous soul?

    The rhetoric around here has me wondering. Do we all acknowledge this as a possibility? Or does not having money prove that you're a bad (or at least weak or stupid or somehow flawed) person? And does having money prove that you are a good (or at least strong or intelligent or somehow better than others) person?
     
  2. leftlegmoderate

    leftlegmoderate New Member

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    Of course.

    But should one have wealth based upon the sole merit of being good or visa versa?

    If some d-bag inherits money it's nobody's business. If a good person lacks wealth due to their own ineptness, all the while complaining about the issue... that is their problem.
     
  3. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    Is there any other way a good person could lack money? Other than ineptness, I mean. Does a lack of money equate to ineptitude?
     
  4. leftlegmoderate

    leftlegmoderate New Member

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    If the question, the complaint, is a lack of wealth.

    But 'good' is relative. They might have a great personality and character, yet a terrible work ethic or pessimistic attitude.
     
  5. peoplevsmedia

    peoplevsmedia Banned

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    The answer to your question, the way you put it, is too obvious. What the supporters of the "rich" here are arguing is that it's not good versus bad, but hard working versus lazy. But I can give examples from my own experience:

    My father: he did not do (*)(*)(*)(*) in USSR. when he came to America that all changed, he became a different man, a hard worker, because the system allowed it. likewise me, also. but I can safely say that both of us could be working much harder (without much effort at all, especialy me being younger) but the corrupt American system simply does not give us the opportunity to.
     
  6. Big Brother

    Big Brother New Member

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    LOL ! Have you ever read the New Testament ?
     
  7. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    I am familiar with it. :)
     
  8. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    So you can't have a good work ethic and a good attitude and be lacking in money?
     
  9. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've struck at the very nature of the current generalizations being thrown around about Wall Streeters, OWSr's, Tea Partiers, the wealthy, the poor, and so on....

    In my experience, having been both relativelly wealthy, and quite poor, all in one lifetime......there is about the same amount of sinners, saints, leaders, losers, and everyday average people in every bunch
     
    HillBilly and (deleted member) like this.
  10. leftlegmoderate

    leftlegmoderate New Member

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    Sure, but ultimately it's the fault of the individual if they feel that they are lacking money. There are exceptions I guess, like an unexpected and serious illness that insurance won't cover etc.
     
  11. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

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    No. I've known good people who weren't greedy. They wanted enough and no more. Good and bad are not in any way related to rich or poor. I've known good people, wonderful people, who were, by my standards rich and I've known good people, wonderful people, who were poor.

    I questions how good a man is when he's jealous and wants what someone else has.
     
  12. xsited1

    xsited1 New Member

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    Yep. And a good person can be rich and a bad person can be poor. :mrgreen:
     
  13. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good and bad are very relative and subjective terms.

    A morally good person can be poor - some even choose to give up their wealth and take a vow of poverty.

    A morally bad person can be rich - such as an especially successful thief or con-man.

    The meritocracy is designed to make the most productive the richest. Not the hardest working, even though many people try to claim that was the goal.

    You can work very hard and still be poor as any general laborer will tell you.
    You can also work very little and be wealthy, as some investors prove.

    The difference is that the actions of that general laborer have little effect on the grand scheme of things, that investor's decisions can make or break an entire company and affect many people.

    The key, in this society is making the right decisions, doing the right things and having a little luck. Even without luck, making the right decisions can make sure you are pretty well off. It is very rare that people who make the right decisions and do the right thing end up poor in our society.
     
  14. Vergilius

    Vergilius Banned

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    Personally, I think there are way too many assumptions when it comes to personal wealth and the character of a person. Wealthy people like to believe that they alone possess the personal characteristics to succeed, but really anyone can succeed with enough financial capital to invest.

    I would also say that there hasn't been such a lack of upward social mobility in the US for a long time. People are more subject to their class today than ever, while the wealthy are more disposed toward generating easy financial returns than ever before. There is almost a "divine right" that capitalists try to associate with the new American nobility that is turning this country into a neo-feudal coalition of government and corporations. Even if you consider these financial aristocrats deserving of their vast self-generating wealth, you have to admit that personal merit is of little consequence when you have millions in disposable income to invest in guaranteed, exponentially rising returns.

    We have a double standard in the country where the working class being seen as worthless pariahs and yuppy swindlers are exalted as inherently more intelligent or motivated than everyone else. It all goes back to the Gordon Gecko "greed is good" 1980's mentality that has gone wild over the last few decades.

    I don't think all rich people are bad, there are philanthropists and visionaries who have assisted in creating a new technological age, and in turn there are greedy poor people who poison their own community with crack and prostitution.

    The question is, do we have a society that allows people an unhindered opportunity to recognize their full potential, or do we have a society that blocks the incentive of people who are born in the rapidly-growing lower class? And do we have a society that truly operates on a paradigm of rewards for hard work, or do we have a society that sees workers as worth nothing more than a unitized commodity of lowest wage/hour = maximum corporate profit?
     
  15. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is the reduced social mobility due to a change in the overall economic landscape, or is there a more psychological reason?

    Do people have the same work ethic, drive, dedication and willingness to sacrifice that previous generations had?
     
  16. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    The thing that made me think about this was a comment someone made to me a few weeks ago. We were talking about the difference between the 1% and the 99%. This person seemed to be under the impression that any decent business owner must be in the 1%. I mentioned that I was definitely in the 99% and did own my own business, and this person's reply was, "Well, you must be terrible at what you do." Which I found very annoying, not to mention untrue. I kick butt at what I do.

    But then I started thinking about this in terms of the larger vision of the capitalist meritocracy. And the comments people have made, that the advantage of capitalism is that it forces people to work.

    I started thinking about it in terms theological as well. Some religions expect that a good person will naturally enjoy opulence; others cast a suspicious eye at anyone too steeped in material pleasures.

    Just wondering where everyone else was at.
     
  17. Daybreaker

    Daybreaker Well-Known Member

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    You mean like a really nice car? Or like health care?
     
  18. gregdavidson

    gregdavidson New Member

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    Is it possible for a rich person to be sympathetic toward the poor? And is it possible for a rich person to recognize that their wealth depends on the prosperity of the poor? And is it possible for the rich to recognize that they're ruining opportunities for future wealthy people by pushing companies to send our wealth overseas?
     
  19. gregdavidson

    gregdavidson New Member

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    Your arguments are based on the assumption that most poor people envy the rich. The first step in understanding how wrong you are is to first understand that most rich people get rich in business. And the success of a business is dependent on how well their chosen markets are doing. If consumer spending goes down the slightest bit, their business suffers. This is why so many wealthy business people would rather see the bottom prosper and pay a little more in taxes. They make MORE that way.
     
  20. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is interesting. My brother owns a business that he started at 17. By the time he was 20 he was making a very good income, enough to put him in the top quintile. He might be able to make it into the 1%, but it would take a major change in the business that he doesn't want to make.

    My father owned his own business (in a completely different field from my brother's.) He hit the 1% about 20 years into the business, and stayed there until he finally sold the business and retired. He hit that point with fewer than 12 employees, so it definitely still fits the definition of a small business.

    Regardless the question of whether a small business owner makes it into the top 1% depends a lot on the type of business and the environment, in addition to the behavior and attitude of the owner. It is very shortsighted to believe that every business owner that isn't in the top 1% is lazy or inept.
     
  21. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A person can be lazy about the things that generate monetary wealth yet at the same be honest, forthright, caring, compassionate, etc. I will not judge people as good or bad, but their actions as good or bad. All human beings have the capacity to do great good or great evil.
     
  22. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    I have met many people who hardly ever see money. They live a subsistence existence, the eat what they grow. These are the most hospitable and friendly people I have ever met.
     
  23. Vergilius

    Vergilius Banned

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    100% economic landscape. The decline of high paying jobs, the bust of the housing industry, etc

    Yes. And they receive much less for their efforts than previous generations - they have a harder time getting health care, astronomical student debt, a more difficult time purchasing a home, etc...
     
  24. hiimjered

    hiimjered Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That doesn't match what I've seen. Years ago a lot of college students worked while going to college. Now most of them seem to just be living off their student loans. Years ago people saved up to buy a home, now they expect to get one with no money down. Years ago people were willing to actually work hard at whatever tasks were required. Now workers whine when asked to get off the phone or when told to stop surfing the internet. Years ago people saved up for what they wanted, today people buy it with a credit card and pay horrible interest rates.

    From what I've seen, many of the people of today don't have the dedication, self control and work ethic needed to improve their lot in life.
     
  25. Vergilius

    Vergilius Banned

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    That is far from what I've seen. The only college kids I've seen who don't work are the ones who drive an awesome car, don't have to worry about debt, are fraternity bros and have an unlimited credit card that mommy and daddy pay for. In other words: pampered rich yuppies who will graduate and get a job through nepotism alone.

    The regular lower and middle class students work crappy college town jobs and pay hiked up rent on top of searching for an "opportunity" to work for free via internships. They barely sleep and are constantly stressed. My sister worked so hard in college that she developed an ulcer, and now she pays 700$ a month for her loans (and she is the most fiscally responsible person I have ever met). She was lucky to find a good job, but had to move across the country away from her family and friends to get it. Every single person I knew who took loans worked during college, myself included. And you should know also that the interest rates cause the loans to double or triple their original amount over the years.

    Who are these people? I haven't met them. Buying a home is a terrible deal nowadays, and if you have a college degree you have to be ready to relocate in the chance you can get a job, and in addition your student loans will prevent you from getting a home. Down payments are worthless if you don't have spectacular credit. Of course, there is always the option to move into a ghetto in Detroit and buy a five thousand dollar house in cash...

    And in the case you buy a house, you better expect to stay there for decades or you will get royally fleeced because the home values are constantly depreciating in the market but being appraised at a higher value then they sell for, which raises property taxes beyond the true worth of the home.

    Yeah and usually "what they want" with the credit card is food and gasoline to drive their rust bucket car to their underpaid job with not enough hours and no benefits or security. All the while praying they don't need dental work or to see a doctor, because if so you have to decide if you want to be healthy and homeless or unhealthy and have a roof over your head.

    Older generations made better money by and large, and everything was cheaper. It was easy to save when they were making 17$ an hour to push a button at the factory and groceries cost 20$ a week. In addition, the "older generations" used to care about their employees and give them incentive to work and reward them for a job well done. Now days every employer says "what can you do for me and how cheap will it cost me?"
     

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