Do Protestants Really Believe in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Blackrook, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. Blackrook

    Blackrook Banned

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    Protestants say they believe in the Bible, and yet there are so many parts of the Bible they would prefer we not talk about.

    John, Chapter 6: If you do not eat my body and drink my blood you will have no life within you. Establishes the Eucharist as the real body and blood of Christ and not just a symbol.

    James, Chapter 2: "Faith without good works is dead." Ouch, Martin Luther didn't like this. He wanted to remove it from the Bible.

    Acts of the Apostles: Apostles given power to forgive sins. Establishes sacrament of confession.

    Gospels (I forget which): Peter is the rock, and upon this rock I build my church. Establishes Peter as first Pope.

    "Peace of Earth good will to men" is a mistranslation in the KJV.

    The Bible really says: "Peace on Earth among men of good will."

    King James ordered this deliberate translation so that his version of the Bible would be consistent with Protestant concept that being good makes no difference to God.

    But countless stories of Jesus make that obviously untrue.

    The rich man is sent to hell because he ignores Lazarus the homeless guy at his gate.

    The sheeps and goats are separated. The goats are the people who didn't help the poor, hungry and naked. They go to hell.

    The 10 virgins, 5 are unready so they don't go into the wedding. If faith alone saves, then how can one be unready?

    Martin Luther, who by the way had no special access to the truth, just made up a bunch of untrue doctrines and got millions of people to believe it. But the Bible is the source of truth, not Martin Luther.
     
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  2. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Do you think the disciples ate his real body and drank his real blood ? They ate bread that he called his body. They drank wine that he called his blood. "In remembrance" of him ..

    He did not succeed and no one is perfect. Let's not start casting stones at the imperfections of men..

    It also gave them power to heal all manor of sick,raise the dead and speak in all tongues but where did that power go ? That succession to forgive lives in the heart of everyone that accepts the Spirit,you don't have ownership of it, it extends to all of Christ's Church ...

    It was a parable that we too believe. Or do you believe that Lazarus was literally in Abraham's Bosom and the Rich man in a fiery hell that he could still manage to talk with out SCREAMING BLOODY HELL .. !!! lol :)

    Schisms happen.. The first one being the East–West of the Catholic. That was inevitable. The Bible is the source of truth -sola scriptura -
     
  3. Jim224

    Jim224 New Member

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    Coming from a Lutheran, we Believe in God. And that's all we need to believe in.

    "We" being myself and the people I meet at my church.
     
  4. Blackrook

    Blackrook Banned

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    That's really a final fort of last resort which happens just before total surrender to faithlessness.

    I've heard that many Protestant ministers openly admit they don't believe in God.
     
  5. montra

    montra New Member

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    Martin Luther had no special access to the truth? I dare say he studied the Bible, so yea, he did have access to the truth, that is, if you believe the Bible is the truth.

    Speaking of Martin Luther, why did he split from the church? If memory serves, having people pay money to get out of purgatory was the reason. Such wickedness in the church had to be dealt with.
     
  6. Blackrook

    Blackrook Banned

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    Martin Luther could have worked within the church and reform it from the inside. Many good men chose to do that during the Counter-Reformation.

    But Luther was a prideful man so he split from the Church, leading to an era of chaos and violence and hatred from which Europe never fully recovered.
     
  7. montra

    montra New Member

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    Work within the church, eh?

    Maybe he should have requested a personal meeting with the Pope......before they tore off his cloths and burned him at the stake!!
     
  8. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    And I've heard catholics claim there is nothing wrong with protecting child molesting preists.........
     
  9. Blackrook

    Blackrook Banned

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    I have never heard any Catholic say that. Do you have any proof?

    And let me ask you, does the sex scandal have to be dragged into every thread about Catholicism?

    It's not really debate, it's griefing.
     
  10. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    Martin Luther wasn't trying to start what we know as the Reformation. He was bringing up what he thought were errors in Church doctrine. The 'split' was a natural result due to Romes reaction to Luther and others protests.

    Many good men sought the same and were executed for it.

    Did the 'good men' of the counter reformation agree with Luther?

    Quantrill
     
  11. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    http://bible.cc/luke/2-14.htm

    LUKE 2:14

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    "Glory to God in highest heaven, and peace on earth to those with whom God is pleased."

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    "Glory to God in the highest, and peace on earth to people who enjoy his favor!"

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “Glory to God in Heaven, and upon earth peace, Good News to the children of men.”

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    "Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those who have his good will!"

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

    American King James Version
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
     
  12. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Luther started his little effort because the Catholic Church had strayed from the Bible. Since then, things might have changed, but Luther certainly was closer to the Bible than the Catholic Church at the time. The counter reformation happened because even the Catholics figured they had strayed too far.

    Feel free to say today's protestants do whatnot, I don't know the modern difference well enough, but Luther was the Bible thumper of his time, not the Catholics.
     
  13. MrConservative

    MrConservative Well-Known Member

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    The holy spirit is the source of all truth. It is the spirit which guides the Church to the truth(John 16:13).

    There are ways to get your point across, but I can see how some people would take offense to your thread. Of course protestants read the Bible. Some verses they are just unaware of,
     
  14. MrConservative

    MrConservative Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he could of. Martin Luther's split with Rome tore Christendom asunder. Many secular rulers wanted Luther to recant his beliefs solely on the simple fact that if he split with Rome, he would destroy the unity of European civilization, and this is exactly what happened. 100 years of war. It should be stressed however, that the Avignon Papacy had severely weakened the Church. After the Papacy finally returned to Rome, successive Popes became focused on rebuilding the glorious city of Rome. The entanglement of the Church in "worldly affairs" caused them to neglect their spiritual duties. Luther made an appeal to Pope Leo X, but it was largely ignored.

    It should be noted, that there where reform movements prior to the Protestant Reformation, but without the support of the Popes, they failed.


    He did, and no, this they didn't burn him at the stake. This is nonsense made up by Fox's book of martyrs.

    Luther was certainly much closer to Catholic beliefs on transubstantiation than most protestants these days. Luther believed in consubstantiation. The main difference being in consubstantiation is that while there exists the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he shares it with the bread.

    I would suggest reading John Chapter 6. on the matter.


    Schisms happen.. The first one being the East–West of the Catholic. That was inevitable. The Bible is the source of truth -sola scriptura -[/QUOTE]

    The Catholic Church's relationship with the Orthodox is very different than with Protestant communities. The big difference being that the Orthodox, just like Catholics still believe in the seven sacraments, which means they still have validly ordained clergy. The Orthodox still believe that Christ is in the Eucharist. In fact, if you a Catholic is trying to go to church, and there are no Catholic Churches in the area, he/she may go to an Orthodox Church for Mass(granted if the Orthodox Priest at that particular parish will let you). A Catholic can't do this with any Protestant Church.

    The source of all truth is the holy spirit. The Church was not founded on any written document. Jesus before he left this earth told commanded them to go out and preach the things I have tought you.
     
  15. Ctrl

    Ctrl Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you?

    Isaias 13:21
    sed requiescent ibi bestiae et replebuntur domus eorum draconibus et habitabunt ibi strutiones et pilosi saltabunt ibi

    Isaias 34:14
    et occurrent daemonia onocentauris et pilosus clamabit alter ad alterum ibi cubavit lamia et invenit sibi requiem

    Psalmi 21:22
    salva me ex ore leonis et de cornibus unicornium exaudi me

    Isaias 34:7
    et descendent unicornes cum eis et tauri cum potentibus inebriabitur terra eorum sanguine et humus eorum adipe pinguium

    Isaias 14:29
    ne laeteris Philisthea omnis tu quoniam comminuta est virga percussoris tui de radice enim colubri egredietur regulus et semen eius absorbens volucrem

    Oh btw...


    Can you even read your bible?
     
  16. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, having been raised Roman Catholic in the 'old days,' my main problem with the church is the separation of the ppl from a direct relationship with God by having 'priests' as their go-betweens. The whole priesthood is a take over from the OT Jewish faith and the Law, where only the priests were allowed to offer sacrifices and were in stead of the individual person. And ONLY the High Priest could go behind the temple veil to 'meet' with the Ark of the Covenant; whereas, the veil in the temple was 'rent in twain' at the crucifixion & death of Jesus Christ, who is called 'our High priest (per the scriptures).

    And if one asks the typical Catholic (I would agree that the several outspoken ones on this forum seem to be more of the 'exception') why they shud go to heaven, most will give the 'works answer---I'm a good person, go to church every week, follow the sacraments, go to confessions, etc. I.e. they are trusting in 'their church' to get to heaven; as opposed to most considered as Protestants, will give a 'saved by grace thru their faith in the cross and in Christ as their substitution for the redemption of their sins.'

    We ALL know that one is saved by faith and not of one's own good works; and that good works will follow salvation just as a good tree bears good fruit. But the typical Catholic is never assured of their salvation, must jump thru many 'hoops' to get to heaven, and is still living under the OT Law (10 Commandments) of Moses. One who is truly 'saved' shud NEVER have to question their salvation! "These things have been written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

    If priests are seen as pastors, shepherds, overseers, counselors, etc. then I have no problem with them fulfilling those offices in the Body of Christ.

    Here are some 'old school' principles that I grew up with:

    1) Catholics were told NOT to read the Bible as it was too complicated, but shud stick with studying the Catholic Catechism (the book containing Catholic doctrines)

    2) My family didnt get a Bible until I was in HS (and my Mother was considered a 'good Catholic'). It (leather cover, 4" thick with gold edged pages, and many beautiful pics of early Christian paintings) sat out in the open on our coffee table, never read, and the only rule was NOT to put anything on top of it!

    3) Priests were set apart & looked upon as being above the laymen and honored as the Holy apostolic reps of God (prior to all the pedophilia events). I see all believers as 'disciples' (those 'disciplined' after Jesus Christ), of which 'the 70' were sent out under Jesus ministry, and of equal standing in the kingdom of God.

    4) I said the Mass in Latin as an altar boy and could not touch the host, only the priest could. I believe today, laymen can serve the Eucharist (?).

    5) My Missal had several 'indulgences' in it, that I used to say over & over to build up my 'account' in Purgatory when I went there--pretty much all Catholics would go there on their way to heaven to pay for their unconfessed 'venial sins.'

    6) They had just started 'Guitar Masses' when I left, and I have heard that they also have since added 'Charismatic Masses' (open to the 'Gifts of the H.S.') in many churches.

    7) We prayed the Rosary often, some Masses were strictly praying the Rosary, which were 'repetitive prayers, often repeated while thinking of other things. Scripture says, "Do not pray as the heathen do, who think they will be heard because of their many words."

    These are just a several things that I experienced as a Catholic boy, and am curious how things have changed since those days...
     
  17. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    I hardly think that changing the Bible, ripping books out, and adding words to support a false doctrine is being closer to the Bible. Luther added the word "alone" to "faith" to support his "faith alone" heresy. The only place in the Bible where you find the words "faith alone" in scripture is when James asserts that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone. But that's ok because Luther was just as willing to tear James from the Canon, as well as Jude, Revelation, and Hebrews and the Deuterocanonical books...anything that disagreed with his doctrine which was clearly more important to him than what the Bible says.

    So you want to try again?
     
  18. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    I have to prove over and over that you don't know anything about the Catholic Church and never did. Priests don't come between people and God, they bring people closer to God through the eucharist, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and encouraging prayers and devotions. I feel closer to God every time I go to Mass or even talk to a priest in the confessional. You are so off base.

    And "per the scriptures" the priesthood remains continually (Hebrews 7:3) The levitical priesthood was trumped by a more ancient and superior priesthood according to the order of Melchizadek of which Christ is high priest forever. The priesthood of the Catholic Church follows according to this order and has since the early church. It's a Protestant fantasy that thinks the priesthood is abolished entirely.

    Because that's exactly how we'll be judged, by our works:

    Revelation 20:12
    And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    Just because you Protestants have a way of explaining away the clear meaning of Scripture does not make Catholics wrong.


    Only Protestants see the wares of salvation as either/or. We don't divide the Church against Christ because the Church is the bride of Christ. God doesn't save lone rangers, he saves his Church:

    Acts 20:28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    Ephesians 1:22And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

    Ephesians 5:29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

    It's to the Church we must submit ourselves:

    Matthew 18:17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

    And when we sin, we offend not only God, but the holy Church:

    1 Corinthians 11:22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

    1 Corinthians 15:9For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    And finally, the Church is the foundation of truth, the chosen vessel of revelation ordained for our sanctification:

    1 Timothy 3:15but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    Only Protestants separate faith and works. Faith without works is dead. There is no salvation apart from works because works cannot be separated from faith.

    Catholics are told to read thoroughly both the Bible and the CCC. You're wrong as usual.

    Funny, every Catholic home I'm ever in has a Bible very handy and in a conspicuous location. Do you really think your rash generalizations will not be scrutinized?

    "prior to all the pedophilia events?" What are you talking about? Should we strike up a conversation about "all the pedophilia events" in Protestant churches? What the hell does that have to do with this conversation.

    The Eucharist is given to laymen taken either by hand or in the mouth. This hardly desecrates it.

    What a terrible thing to teach people to make deposits in a heavenly bank account!

    Matthew 6:20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

    Repitition is called for in scripture in regards to prayerful petition. This was the main point of the Parable of the Unjust Judge, a point clearly lost on you. Jesus was teaching against the vain prayers of the heathen, a part you left out of your paraphrase.

    I've demonstrated yet again that you do not and never have understood the Catholic Church. Like most boys, you probably slept, goofed off, or spaced out your catholic upbringing, but like most Protestant "raised catholics" that doesn't stop you from speaking authoritatively on what you think the Catholic Church teaces.
     
  19. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again St. Mike, you are running amuck with your name calling in trying to discredit my 'actual experiences' as I qualified as 'old school' Catholicism. Christened at birth, 1st Communion, Confirmation (my confirmation name is 'Martin' after my stand in neighbor), altar boy, 2 yrs Latin in HS, and 4yrs of CYO/CYC in HS.

    I politely asked for an update of some of the things that I grew up 'practicing' and you go charging off a cliff in defense of what apparently has changed and is 'modern day Catholicism.' It is the Roman Catholic doctrine that has changed, not the scriptures and NOT my many years of experiences as a Catholic boy/teen.....put what I said in it's perspective and realize that what you are practicing today is NOT what I grew up with in some respects...And, regardless of your 'vain words,' my experiences were and are valid!

    You'd better hit the confessional, Mike.....you're righteous indignation is but in vain, for per scripture, "The anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God."
     
  20. countryboy

    countryboy Well-Known Member

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    Really? Would you care to provide a couple of verifiable examples of this?
     
  21. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]


    You see, it's statements like that which give me cause to question your "expertise". The Catholic Church doesn't change doctrine. Ever. Disciplines change, but not doctrines, a fine point you would understand if you knew what the Catholic Church teaches.

    I think you have a romantic memory of your Catholic upbringing, one in which you were paying attention and not sleeping, goofing off, doodling, or drawing lampoons on the nun teaching the class. My assessment of your degree of absorbtion is based on what you're saying today. Doctrines haven't changed over these decades, but memories surely have.

    Hilarious that you think you can prescribe my need for confession. Your post here indicates that you're the one losing your cool, not me.
     
  22. montra

    montra New Member

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    But the scandel persists in spite of pleas abroad for reform. It seems what is needed are a few more Matin Luthers in the Catholic church.
     
  23. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    Unfortunately it's not a strong argument. For every Protestant pastor I could find who doesn't believe, I could also find a Catholic priest who also privately doubts. It's such a rare occurence as to not even merit consideration. All the Protestant pastors I've met have been sincere and uncompromising believers in the gospel of Christ.
     
  24. montra

    montra New Member

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    Instead of looking upon Catholism as the "be all" way to God, perhaps you should step back and observe the life of Christ. He rose up against the religious leaders of his day. He did not rail against sinners. He did not rail against the state. Instead, he went after the jugular of the religious leaders of his day.

    As to why, it's pretty obvious to me. Jesus was not here to defend the religious establishment, rather, he was here to do the Father's business, which was to reach out to sinners. He then targeted those who were the Father's representatives here on earth who were to reach out to those sinners. I dare say that if Jesus were walking the earth today, he would do the same.

    Does this mean that the church should be disolved? Absolutely not. After all, we see Christ chasing out the money changers in the Temple, which was a place of connection and worship for the people to the Father. In short, Christ's focus was to target obstacles for mankind to be reconciliated to their God.
     
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  25. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again you show a 'zeal' for your church doctrine, just as Paul (Saul) did as a Pharisee of Pharisees.

    But Catholic doctrine and practices have changed over time (no one can refute the horrors of the church in Rome over the centuries), just as Mormon doctrine has changed and now allows in Blacks (and possibly woman can get to heaven w/o being married to a Mormon man?).

    But you are steeped in doctrine and defensive, and therefore these disqualify you from seeking the truths behind the scriptures. Where the basis of most protestant faiths is to attempt to take the NT scriptures at 'face value,' the Catholic church has to 'twist' them to fit their doctrine! Theological gymnastics is the basis for their apologetics...but nice to see & read all your cut & paste apologetics which you quickly whip out as boiler plate excuses.

    And, AGAIN, you can rant & rave and have a fit all you want, but I STILL stand on the 'truths' that I experienced and stated in ALL my posts this thread....but I'm sure that you will continue in your denial....[​IMG]

    BTW, I was raised Catholic as a Mil Brat, attended Catholic churches in several states, as well as France, Germany, and even a trip/service to/in Rome & the Vatican..so one could say that , "I've been around the horn' and my experiences are not isolated to one area & a single church!
     

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